D&D 4E getting ready for 4e? Advice from saga players?

[nightspaladin]

I am starting up a new campaign, (going to run the very nicely built Savage Tide arch) and I am thinking about making some 4E changes. Wondering if anyone that has played Saga or experimented with these in the past month can tell me how much they may alter the game play.

My thoughts are

Triple max starting hit points

Saga style Skills

Defenses instead of Saves (This is the one that I am concerned about. Not sure what to make the Spellcasters attack roll based. If it is based on spellcraft, it is possible to get +13-14 at level one and that makes it nearly a auto hit. If it is bab, then they will miss all the time.)

Bonus feat for all classes every 2 levels



Based on the info we know and personal experience, is there anything else you recommend?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

We're currently playing a home conversion of SW Saga to d20 in the upper levels. A few quick recommendations:

Don't use Spellcraft (or Use the Force for attack rolls for spells). Make up a MAB (magical attack bonus) equal to level.

MAB= Level + Intelligence bonus for wizards/Wisdom bonus for Clerics/Charisma bonus for sorcerors + miscellaneous bonuses = to hit with spells versus defenses

Technically, you're looking at a max of +5 to hit at first level with a Wizard w/ an 18 Int (mirroring a 1st level fighter with a 18 Str for melee or 18 Dex for ranged).

Use the following formula for Defenses to conform for a hybridized version of 3.5/SW Saga:

Fortitude = 10 + Level or AC bonus + Con Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus

Reflex = 10 + Level + Dex Bonus + Shield Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus (e.g. Armored Defense)

Will = 10 + Level + Wis Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Another thing:

Remember these numbers, 1, 2, 5 and 10.

If 4th edition prescribes to the new number methodology, expect to change your modifiers. For instance.

Firing into melee formlerly -4, now -5 (folllowing the Saga style combat)

Soft cover would be +5 or +10 for Reflex bonus (Hard cover would confer to Fortitude as well)

Conditional modifiers from the DM should revolve around 1, 2, 5 and 10. If you're into the crunchy parts of the system, this will make a lot of sense.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I made a thread earlier called '10 ways to play 4e today', but never got around to filling out the specific mechanics (I'm moving house) - http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206799

I also plan to try a mishmash of 3e, Saga and 4e rumours trying out these changes:

Triple first level HP
Defenses instead of saves
Skills as Saga (untrained/trained/focus, fewer of them)
Use of class abilities per encounter instead of per day
Recharging magic after each encounter (getting some spell levels back)
Allowing players to hack up their class and replace abilities with themed but different options (using complete books, unearthed arcana, PHB II for ideas)
Single attacks per round, simplified grapple, trip, etc from Saga
Damage bonus equal to BAB
Removing certain troublesome spells, using save or dying rules
Critical hits all 20/x2 except for with feats
Racial paragon abilities as characters level
Second wind once a day for all characters

I plan to report back how it works out, you know, because

 

[HeinorNY]

Defenses instead of Saves (This is the one that I am concerned about. Not sure what to make the Spellcasters attack roll based. If it is based on spellcraft, it is possible to get +13-14 at level one and that makes it nearly a auto hit. If it is bab, then they will miss all the time.)

From UA:

Magic Check: 1d20 + spell level + ability modifer + other modifiers
Fortitude Score: 11 + enemy’s Fortitude save modifier
Reflex Score: 11 + enemy’s Reflex save modifier
Will Score: 11 + enemy’s Will save modifier

 

[breschau]

I am starting up a new campaign, (going to run the very nicely built Savage Tide arch) and I am thinking about making some 4E changes. Wondering if anyone that has played Saga or experimented with these in the past month can tell me how much they may alter the game play.

My thoughts are

Triple max starting hit points

Saga style Skills

Defenses instead of Saves (This is the one that I am concerned about. Not sure what to make the Spellcasters attack roll based. If it is based on spellcraft, it is possible to get +13-14 at level one and that makes it nearly a auto hit. If it is bab, then they will miss all the time.)

Bonus feat for all classes every 2 levels

Based on the info we know and personal experience, is there anything else you recommend?

As spells stand now, you still have to roll to-hit. Simply adding crits on natural 20s might be enough to emulate the new system without having to rework everything. And considering the following, it's likely much easier.

If they are basing spell to-hits on Spellcraft (a la Use the Force) they will likely use a house rule mentioned on the Saga boards: instead of trained skills getting a +5 bonus, they level with the character, i.e. +1 bonus per level, instead of the +1/2 per level standard. You could disallow Skill Focus in Spellcraft. With those changes you reduce the bonus to the caster's character level, plus ability modifier, which is on par with the fighter's BAB. That's right where it should be for casters IMO.

 

[nightspaladin]

Thanks for the advice.

Any advice on how to turn spells into per encounter effects, other than cutting them to 1/4 there current number?

 

[HeinorNY]

You needed to separate spells into three brands, at will, per encounter and per day, depending on their effectiviness and power. Cures could be per day, magic missiles per encounter, big damaging spells could be per day, detection spells could be at will, that's a hard job.
The per encounter spells need 1 minute of rest to be recharged.