Getting Rid of Level Drain

[Dunjin]

I've always hated level drain as an attack form, but I believe that certain undead should have frightening attacks to reallyhammer home the fact that these things are not natural or "right" in any way. I know a lot of people don't like level drain, but what do you use instead so that you don't have to drop the CR of the associated creature?

For example, if I remove the level drain attack from the vampire template, wouldn't that drop the CR? What would you replace it with?

 

[KarinsDad]

You could replace it with a CON and/or DEX ability score drain.

I do this in my falling house rules for falls 15 feet or greater.

However, the reason level drain is so scary is that unless you can find the magic to restore your level, it takes a long time (many sessions), just to get back to your previous experience point total.

Ability score drain is not as scary as that.

Of course, you could make the ability score drain permanent. That would be fairly scary. However, that is even more devastating than level drain since if you cannot find the spells to restore your levels, you can still get them back over time. If you cannot find the spells to restore your permanent ability scores, you are SOL.

 

[Cheiromancer]

You could replace it with a CON and/or DEX ability score drain.

I do this in my falling house rules for falls 15 feet or greater.

That sounds interesting. Do you have these rules posted somewhere?

 

[Enkhidu]

You could replace it with a CON and/or DEX ability score drain.

This is definitely the right way to approach it, in my book, though I would give call it ability damage and use the same save mechanic as level drain (temporary unless you fail the save, which makes it permanent).

 

[Scion]

What dont you like about it? If you dont like the aspect of loseing a level permanently (this is the part that I dont like) you could do what I did. Leave the energy drain ability intact, raise the dc to get rid of it slightly, and just have it sit there until it is saved. No permanent loss, and it still makes them really scary without changing too much.

If they dont take away levels permanently then it seems to me most of the really bad part goes away

 

[Dunjin]

I don't like the idea of it. It doesn't make sense--Negative energy creatures don't get "negative XPs" to gain "negative levels, so why is your level ascribed to positive energy or life force? I like Con drain for vampires, for instance, and I'm considering replacing other undead's level drains with paralysis or something similar (Dex drain).

Level drain requires a bit too much bookkeeping for my tastes to begin with, whether it's permanent or not. Losing a level is also hideously frustrating, and considering that you can lose more than one in a single fight, I'd personally rather just die. I like the idea of giving a "save or permanent" aspect to ability drain, but I'd also insert more ways to get it back .

Any other ideas?

 

[Scion]

What? most of that post doesnt really make any sense to me. It is just another type of damage. If you have 3 negative levels then you get a penalty of 3 to certain things and you lose your 3 highest spells (no clue why about the spells, but whatever). It isnt any different than hp damage or stat damage or anything else. They all require their own amount of bookkeeping. Personally I think most stat adjustments requires way more bookkeeping than just remembering which number to subtract. If you take a penalty of 2 to con you have to adjust your hp, one of your saves, several skills, etc but since it isnt across the board you have to remember which are which.

It is just another special attack. I hate the possibility of loseing a level after 24 hours that is why I always get rid of it. But it is no different than a creature having poison, just treat it as some strange sickness, short term disease, or other various ailment. No difference. So long as you kill the actual level loss part

 

[Enkhidu]

What? most of that post doesnt really make any sense to me. It is just another type of damage. If you have 3 negative levels then you get a penalty of 3 to certain things and you lose your 3 highest spells (no clue why about the spells, but whatever). It isnt any different than hp damage or stat damage or anything else. They all require their own amount of bookkeeping. Personally I think most stat adjustments requires way more bookkeeping than just remembering which number to subtract. If you take a penalty of 2 to con you have to adjust your hp, one of your saves, several skills, etc but since it isnt across the board you have to remember which are which.

It is just another special attack. I hate the possibility of loseing a level after 24 hours that is why I always get rid of it. But it is no different than a creature having poison, just treat it as some strange sickness, short term disease, or other various ailment. No difference. So long as you kill the actual level loss part

For most players and DMs, losing a level is just the pits - not just because its a pain to lose something you worked hard for, but because the mountain of things affected by the loss: BAB, Saves, Skills (especially for Rogues), Spells per Day, Spells Access period, level dependent class abilites, etc. While Ability scores do still affect a lot of these items, they affect less of them.

I'd rather recalc based on ability scores (which happens with poison already) on the fly than deal with level loss any day of the week.

 

[Dunjin]

What? most of that post doesnt really make any sense to me.

Level drain never made sense to me. It always felt like someone in the old days said, "Hrm, we have things that damage hit points and all that, but this monster is really scary. I know! It takes away levels! Genius!" Then 3.x kept it as a legacy thing, but smartly altered it so that the level drain isn't necessarily permanent.

Maybe I misunderstand the math involved. Do you not lose skill ranks with level drain? Do you not lose feats you might have gotten? Do you not lose X hit points, saves, and BAB?

From a flavor standpoint, it also makes no sense to me. I guess I always saw levels as an abstract representation of your character's experience in the world and skill at what he does. Why would one touch from a vampire remove some of that? 3.x makes a little more sense, since you can attribute it to a disease or something, but why not just make it a disease? Something curable without seeking out a Restoration spell?

From a game design standpoint, it's also not so cool, in my opinion. An unlucky battle with some spectres could put the PCs back in the days of fighting kobolds and goblins again, whereas they were obviously fighting cooler, deadlier monsters before. As a GM, I don't want to regress a campaign if I can help it, especially if my players are having fun with their higher level characters and can look back on the olden days of running from hobgoblins with nostalgia and pride.

 

[Scion]

I dont understand why people on this thread arent understanding me.

I 'always' get rid of the permanent aspect, you CANNOT lose a level from energy drain.

All energy drain does in a normal campaign is the following:

for the next 24 hours you have penalties
-1 to all skill and ability checks
-1 to attacks
-1 to saving throws
-1 effective level (for level checks only)
-1 spell from your highest level (characters choice which is lost)

These penalties stack
after 24 hours you have to make a fort save dc 10 + 1/2 attackers hd + attackers cha mod or lose a level

Now, I toss out the last part about loseing a level. I keep saying that over and over again.

The actual energy drain isnt so bad, it is just another type of damage. Yes it is scary, but it isnt horrible. It mainly just makes the monster different in certain ways.

Like I said, it is no different than poison or a disease. They are the same mechanic. If you just get rid of the loseing a level part then ther are no problems, and it is easier to keep track of than ability damage.

No hd loss, no level loss, no exp loss, no permanently bad things. No problem

Just think of it like a poison that happens to come from the negative material plane. Positive energy based undead would have a similar ability.

Most characters live on the prime, which has bits of every plane. People have a mix of both positive and negative energy. Too much of either is very bad for you. So even a positive energy creature could give you something akin to energy drain, it'd give the same penalties but be called something else, and possibly cancel out the negative energy drain. Would be a cool mechanic, add flavor, and still keep things easy.