Getting Rid of Level Drain
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Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
How is it fun to lose experience for your character and have your plans for their future abilities set back? How is it fun for the DM to have to run the same level adventures forever because everyone keeps getting drained? No, I see no fun in pointless frustration, myself.ciaran00 said:
Negative Levels as Ability Damage
I recommend redefining a Negative Level as two points of Ability Damage to all Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, etc.). It has roughly the same effect as the current mechanic (-1 to almost everything), and it's quite scary -- but it gets around a lot of the wonkiness.
If you want to make it a bit scarier -- and conjure a bit of Morgul-blade flavor -- you can treat it as a disease with the potential to do more Ability Damage with a failed Fort save on subsequent days.
I recommend redefining a Negative Level as two points of Ability Damage to all Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, etc.). It has roughly the same effect as the current mechanic (-1 to almost everything), and it's quite scary -- but it gets around a lot of the wonkiness.
If you want to make it a bit scarier -- and conjure a bit of Morgul-blade flavor -- you can treat it as a disease with the potential to do more Ability Damage with a failed Fort save on subsequent days.
Altalazar
First Post
ciaran00 said:
It has nothing to do with 'winning' - it has everything to do with character development. And what it does is it wipes it out - completely. You developed up a character who has a potion making business to support his family? Ooops - forgot how to do all of that - you're first level again. So sorry.
And you forgot how to do everything else you ever learned over your entire life of adventuring. Explain to me how that is "fun"? To me, that is only fun with a video game-mentality where you build up special powers, then lose them all when you lose a 'life' and then have to start all over again - but that is not fun in a role-playing game, where the whole point of the game is character development, not earning "points."
It is REALLY EASY to make something "hard" by things like level drain. That doesn't mean it is fun. I could make a video game so hard you could NEVER "win" when playing it - that, say, would make you go back to the beginning whenever you got close to "winning" - tell me, would that be "fun" because it was "hard"?
Tell me, can you think of ANY fantasy story ever written where such a thing as level drain was ever a story point? Nope - because that simply isn't part of the genre - it is a silly and destructive rule-mechanic hold-over from the cheesy power-gaming roots of D&D. And it will never exist in my games, DM or player. I prefer a real challenge, not a video-game-erase-years-of-playing-and-start-over artificial one.
The actual level loss does suck, and I always get rid of it.
However, in a normal campaign once my entire characters history was 'based' on level drain.
My character had been about a 16th level character in a group of adventurers who went to one of the many islands in the world we were playing. It was a land of twisted and corrupted things, mostly undead or undeadlike. Cutting through the fun backstory of misadventure it turned out my character was the only one to escape alive on their ship but he only had 1 level left the next day after all of those saves.
So after a period of recuperation and mental blocking he was back on the mainland, had no idea who he was or why he was there. More backstory, up to level 3, and joined the real group with a whole lot of story ready to be told. Enemies on a hidden island. Tons of room for developement and interesting experiences.
Just trying to show that even the most horrible rule can have a place to do some good. I would still perfectly expect from that point on to have the dm cut people some slack and not allow the energy drain to kill levels, as it still sucks.
Sorry for the rambling
However, in a normal campaign once my entire characters history was 'based' on level drain.
My character had been about a 16th level character in a group of adventurers who went to one of the many islands in the world we were playing. It was a land of twisted and corrupted things, mostly undead or undeadlike. Cutting through the fun backstory of misadventure it turned out my character was the only one to escape alive on their ship but he only had 1 level left the next day after all of those saves.
So after a period of recuperation and mental blocking he was back on the mainland, had no idea who he was or why he was there. More backstory, up to level 3, and joined the real group with a whole lot of story ready to be told. Enemies on a hidden island. Tons of room for developement and interesting experiences.
Just trying to show that even the most horrible rule can have a place to do some good. I would still perfectly expect from that point on to have the dm cut people some slack and not allow the energy drain to kill levels, as it still sucks.
Sorry for the rambling
Many aspects of D&D have little basis in The Literature. (And I'm not generally fan of those aspects...)Altalazar said:
Anyway, I think something akin to level drain might have a place, because pure Str on Con drain don't properly reflect the "soul-searing touch of evil" we're going for -- spellcasters hardly notice a thing, for instance.
Khur
Sympathy for the Devil
Hi all.
I've always hated level drain myself, and I don't use it in my home campaign. I did use it in my work in Book of Templates Deluxe Edition just to maintain consistency with D&D core rules. The intelligent and lively discussion here got me thinking about adding another option to the BoTDE. First I want to address some specific points.
I don't necessarily think that the idea of the "negative level" in and of itself is so bad. It boils down to –1 to every roll, –5 hp, –1 effective level, and the loss of one of a character's highest spell slots/prepared spells for the day. What if, instead of bothering with the recalculation of permanent class level loss, this effect is what you made permanent? Restoration spells reverse this "taint" on the character's soul. In some ways, this can be worse than a class level loss because skills and rolls to which no points are added with a particular level gain (like the BAB of a wizard) still get penalized, and penalized without respect to character class. Spellcasters really suffer the brunt of this optional ruling, though, but their "spiritual" powers are more sensitive to such corruption of the body-mind.
Some other considerations: If you change negative levels, how does that effect the negative levels bestowed by, say, a holy weapon upon an evil wielder? Here the negative levels (which are never permanent) seem to make sense, and can even kill a wimpy creature. That's cool to me—a goblin picks up a holy sword and is instantly slain, while a 10th-level blackguard just does everything more poorly. The enervation and energy drain spells need to be addressed, too, as does the life drinker.
I like the "save-or-permanent hit-point-loss" idea. Permanent hp loss (curable by restoration spells) seems like a cool way to go. It adds a bit more danger to Cyberzombie's system—useful for really scary undead.
So what about these off-the-cuff mechanics based on the great ideas here:
Energy Drain (Su): Living opponents hit by a creature possessing this ability take 1 point of ability damage to whichever of their physical ability scores is the highest, 1 point to the highest mental ability score, and 1d6 points of damage for every 3 HD the draining creature possesses. These losses are permanent if a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 of the creature's HD + its Charisma modifier) made 24 hours later is failed. Whenever the energy drain is successful, the draining creature gains all hit points drained as temporary hit points. A casting of restoration can cure the hit points permanently lost to energy drain, while greater restoration cures all disabilities caused by this power.
Explanation of the idea: Energy drain is destructive to the "energy body" or spirit of a living creature. The highest physical ability score is manifestation of that energy body's strong point, which is immediately compromised by the enervating touch. Mental ability damage serves to appropriately cripple a magician character as his or her spirit suffers the taint of the undead touch, as well as simulating fear, confusion, and even madness. By applying the damage to the character's highest statistic, you really hit where it counts and, at the same time, insure the simultaneous degeneration of all ability scores as one that was the highest falls below another ability score. This simulates the eventual total compromise of the psycho-spiritual and body connection. The hit point damage virtually assures death to, say, a commoner (when combined with the slam damage most undead do) and can be horrifying to a hero. Making the losses permanent is doubly scary. The fact that it takes a lot of successful attacks to drain all of a character's ability scores makes contact with the undead more likely to be crippling than deadly, though the hit point damage works to counter this effect. If you add a provision allowing the undead to make use of the drained ability points as well, you've got something really terrifying—just remember to alter that CR.
Example: Jagr (a 4th-level fighter, with 30 hp [+1 Con]) faces a 6 HD wight. The wight hits with a slam, doing 3 points of damage and draining Jagr's Str by 2 points (from 16 to 14), his Cha by 2 points (to 12) and hit points by another 7 points (which the wight gains). Jagr's player should be scared now—he's at –1 to his attack and damage rolls, –1 to Charisma-related checks (loss of sense of self and confidence), and down three-tenths of his hit points. Now imagine if the wight gains 2 Str and 2 Cha! (Or, you could say the undead gains half of what it drains—the rest is waste in the energy transfer. In this case, half of a point of anything is rounded to 0 (no net gain for the energy draining creature).
To mitigate the danger of the above power add an initial Fortitude saving throw (same DC) that allows a character to avoid the energy drain altogether.
For even scarier undead add (Morgul blade effect):
Soul Taint (Su): A creature affected by energy drain must make an initial Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 of the creature's HD + its Charisma modifier) or contract the soul taint disease.
Soul Taint
Infection: Injury (energy drain only)
DC: 10 + 1/2 of the infecting creature's HD + its Charisma modifier
Incubation: Instant
Damage: Same as initial energy drain.
Description: Soul taint is a horrible disease of the very spirit caused by life-sapping touch of the undead. During its throes, the victim of the disease grows weaker and more delirious with each passing day, gaining a deathly pallor and milky eyes. Successful daily saves only temporarily stave off the effects of inevitable degeneration, for the disease can only be cured by a remove disease spell, and only then if the caster makes a level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC equal to 10 + the infecting creature's HD. If the level check is a failure, the spell instead acts as an automatic success on that day's saving throw against the disease. If the sufferer succumbs to soul taint he or she dies, transforming into an undead creature of the infecting creature's kind within moments of death.
Anyway, just some ideas. Comments, rants, and flames welcome! Thanks for the opportunity to participate in this.
Edit: added some bold
I've always hated level drain myself, and I don't use it in my home campaign. I did use it in my work in Book of Templates Deluxe Edition just to maintain consistency with D&D core rules. The intelligent and lively discussion here got me thinking about adding another option to the BoTDE. First I want to address some specific points.
I don't necessarily think that the idea of the "negative level" in and of itself is so bad. It boils down to –1 to every roll, –5 hp, –1 effective level, and the loss of one of a character's highest spell slots/prepared spells for the day. What if, instead of bothering with the recalculation of permanent class level loss, this effect is what you made permanent? Restoration spells reverse this "taint" on the character's soul. In some ways, this can be worse than a class level loss because skills and rolls to which no points are added with a particular level gain (like the BAB of a wizard) still get penalized, and penalized without respect to character class. Spellcasters really suffer the brunt of this optional ruling, though, but their "spiritual" powers are more sensitive to such corruption of the body-mind.
Some other considerations: If you change negative levels, how does that effect the negative levels bestowed by, say, a holy weapon upon an evil wielder? Here the negative levels (which are never permanent) seem to make sense, and can even kill a wimpy creature. That's cool to me—a goblin picks up a holy sword and is instantly slain, while a 10th-level blackguard just does everything more poorly. The enervation and energy drain spells need to be addressed, too, as does the life drinker.
Right on! This is too true, and not the only confusing "duality" in the game. Add to the problem with equating XP to "life force" the fact that, according to official D&D cosmology, the spirit of a dead PC that has passed into the afterlife (as a petitioner) is stripped of level-related abilities (but a ghost isn’t). I don't use XP as "life force" in my home campaigns either, so no XP costs for items or spells. I have other "controls", but I guess this is really another discussion (a cool one, though).Ahrimon said:
Well, your homebrew system rocks, and the logic that undead shouldn't be like poisonous critters is sound too. However, hit points are not wholly life force. They're a blend of toughness and life force, as well as just the plain ability to turn what would be a terrible direct hit into a minor injury. Describing combat requires the DM to take this into account—people can take hit point damage and not really be struck (which brings up a whole other confusing duality when it comes to secondary monster attack abilities, like level drain and poison). The reason your hit point loss system works for me, regardless of the argument over "what are hit points", is that your undead can kill regular folks really easily, but heroes can stand against them longer—but the thought is really scary and everyone really learns to love that good cleric. With just ability drain, the regular folks can sometimes stand as long as a hero. No good. Perhaps poison should follow this route too? (And, maybe, both should require a critical hit to come into play.)Cyberzombie said:
Just remember, 2d6s create a bell curve while d12s are linear. While the average damage is mostly the same, the high and low ends are less likely using 2d6, while on a d12 each number comes up 8.3% of the time. A d12 is a better damage die if you want to ensure randomness, while 2d6 is better for ensuring average (7) damage.Cheiromancer said:
I like the "save-or-permanent hit-point-loss" idea. Permanent hp loss (curable by restoration spells) seems like a cool way to go. It adds a bit more danger to Cyberzombie's system—useful for really scary undead.
Nice. I really like the "Morgul blade" aspect. What if a certain percentage of the ability damage never heals? "That wound will never totally heal," Gandalf said.mmadsen said:
Kinda like the Morgul blade idea above?pawsplay said:
So what about these off-the-cuff mechanics based on the great ideas here:
Energy Drain (Su): Living opponents hit by a creature possessing this ability take 1 point of ability damage to whichever of their physical ability scores is the highest, 1 point to the highest mental ability score, and 1d6 points of damage for every 3 HD the draining creature possesses. These losses are permanent if a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 of the creature's HD + its Charisma modifier) made 24 hours later is failed. Whenever the energy drain is successful, the draining creature gains all hit points drained as temporary hit points. A casting of restoration can cure the hit points permanently lost to energy drain, while greater restoration cures all disabilities caused by this power.
Explanation of the idea: Energy drain is destructive to the "energy body" or spirit of a living creature. The highest physical ability score is manifestation of that energy body's strong point, which is immediately compromised by the enervating touch. Mental ability damage serves to appropriately cripple a magician character as his or her spirit suffers the taint of the undead touch, as well as simulating fear, confusion, and even madness. By applying the damage to the character's highest statistic, you really hit where it counts and, at the same time, insure the simultaneous degeneration of all ability scores as one that was the highest falls below another ability score. This simulates the eventual total compromise of the psycho-spiritual and body connection. The hit point damage virtually assures death to, say, a commoner (when combined with the slam damage most undead do) and can be horrifying to a hero. Making the losses permanent is doubly scary. The fact that it takes a lot of successful attacks to drain all of a character's ability scores makes contact with the undead more likely to be crippling than deadly, though the hit point damage works to counter this effect. If you add a provision allowing the undead to make use of the drained ability points as well, you've got something really terrifying—just remember to alter that CR.
Example: Jagr (a 4th-level fighter, with 30 hp [+1 Con]) faces a 6 HD wight. The wight hits with a slam, doing 3 points of damage and draining Jagr's Str by 2 points (from 16 to 14), his Cha by 2 points (to 12) and hit points by another 7 points (which the wight gains). Jagr's player should be scared now—he's at –1 to his attack and damage rolls, –1 to Charisma-related checks (loss of sense of self and confidence), and down three-tenths of his hit points. Now imagine if the wight gains 2 Str and 2 Cha! (Or, you could say the undead gains half of what it drains—the rest is waste in the energy transfer. In this case, half of a point of anything is rounded to 0 (no net gain for the energy draining creature).
To mitigate the danger of the above power add an initial Fortitude saving throw (same DC) that allows a character to avoid the energy drain altogether.
For even scarier undead add (Morgul blade effect):
Soul Taint (Su): A creature affected by energy drain must make an initial Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 of the creature's HD + its Charisma modifier) or contract the soul taint disease.
Soul Taint
Infection: Injury (energy drain only)
DC: 10 + 1/2 of the infecting creature's HD + its Charisma modifier
Incubation: Instant
Damage: Same as initial energy drain.
Description: Soul taint is a horrible disease of the very spirit caused by life-sapping touch of the undead. During its throes, the victim of the disease grows weaker and more delirious with each passing day, gaining a deathly pallor and milky eyes. Successful daily saves only temporarily stave off the effects of inevitable degeneration, for the disease can only be cured by a remove disease spell, and only then if the caster makes a level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC equal to 10 + the infecting creature's HD. If the level check is a failure, the spell instead acts as an automatic success on that day's saving throw against the disease. If the sufferer succumbs to soul taint he or she dies, transforming into an undead creature of the infecting creature's kind within moments of death.
Anyway, just some ideas. Comments, rants, and flames welcome! Thanks for the opportunity to participate in this.
Edit: added some bold
Last edited:
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