Getting Rid of Level Drain

[Khur]

That could work, but I'd probably keep it cosmetic, myself -- i.e., the scar never heals, but the ability damage does. (Ooh, imagine that the Wraith's handprint never leaves its victim...)

The stories you could tell....

 

[Cheiromancer]

Don't make it too complicated! A -1 to all d20 rolls and d12 worth of stolen life is about as complicated as I would want to make it.

Oh, and that you die if your negative levels equal or exceed your character level.

 

[mmadsen]

Negative Levels as Ability Damage

Don't make it too complicated!

Agreed. When you're designing a rule -- or reading a rule someone else designed -- that complexity seems interesting. When you're playing, that complexity just gets in the way; you want the rules to recede into the background.

A -1 to all d20 rolls and d12 worth of stolen life is about as complicated as I would want to make it.

Oh, and that you die if your negative levels equal or exceed your character level.

Honestly, I just don't like using levels for something like that. (Especially when I think of a few low-level halflings fighting a wight -- and later a wraith -- in a certain trilogy...)

If we redefine a Negative Level as two points of Ability Damage to all Ability scores, we have a simple mechanic that yields -1 to almost everything and kills characters after about five Negative Levels (regardless of character level).

I recommend redefining a Negative Level as two points of Ability Damage to all Ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, etc.). It has roughly the same effect as the current mechanic (-1 to almost everything), and it's quite scary -- but it gets around a lot of the wonkiness.

If you want to make it a bit scarier -- and conjure a bit of Morgul-blade flavor -- you can treat it as a disease with the potential to do more Ability Damage with a failed Fort save on subsequent days.

 

[mmadsen]

Ghoul as Vampire

For example, if I remove the level drain attack from the vampire template, wouldn't that drop the CR? What would you replace it with?

A very different option is to replace the "vampire" entirely with stats from another creature. For instance, if you ignore the picture and the flavor text, the ghoul makes an excellent vampire! Just add a full-attack bite that does Con damage to paralyzed foes (which, in many cases, is less damaging than bite/claw/claw, and probably shouldn't boost CR at all).

 

[Cheiromancer]

If we redefine a Negative Level as two points of Ability Damage to all Ability scores, we have a simple mechanic that yields -1 to almost everything and kills characters after about five Negative Levels (regardless of character level).

Well, again it is the complexity issue. Dropping ability scores affects magic and turn undead rolls, renders certain feats unusable (power attack, dodge and expertise especially), changes encumbrance levels, bonus hit points due to Con, etc., etc.. My alternative is something you only have to remember to apply when you roll a d20.

Of course, you could make my version of energy drain work the same in combat as the ability damage option- just say that when the number of negative levels is greater than or equal to 1/2 of any ability score something bad happens; the ability score is treated as 0, leading to paralysis, catatonia, etc..

But then there are three things that could drop the character- hp damage (if the undead steals 1d12 with each strike), negative levels equal to their character level (instant death), or negative levels equal to half their lowest ability score (death or incapacitation). That would probably be the killer- anyone with an 8 dump stat is going to be in trouble- two hits by a vampire and they are down. Almost anyone would be incapacitated by a third blow by a vampire.

Hmmm. Are you sure you want to have it do ability damage? I don't think energy drain needs more than two ways to drop a character, and applying 2 points of ability damage to every stat probably makes it too lethal.

 

[Telperion]

Okay. I, as a DM (and occasional player), don't see what the big fuzz is all about.
1 point of level drain basically puts a -1 on everything except weapon damage.
You loose a spell from your highest spell slot (if you have more than one, then you get to choose).

After 24h you make a separate Fort-save for each individual negative level. And if you fail you loose a level. Everyone's pretty much okay with this, right?
The problem seems to be in making that level change downward. Well, there is an optional rule for this in the DMG. The biggest problem seems to be in remembering what skills you took at your last level up, and I can understand that taking off several levels at a time can be a pain in that way.

But.

Skill points: Calculate the skill points you gained during those level ups you are now loosing, and remove them from the highest skill ranks. That is to say if you are a wizard you probably have quite a few ranks in Concentration, Knowledge (arcana) and Spell craft. Well, those go first, and then you get to pick and choose what lowers next. It hurts like hell, but it's not that hard.

Feats: Players tend to write them down in the order they get them. Remove the latest and keep going until all the lost levels are dealt with.

BAB, Saves, and class abilities: easy enough, since you have a book to tell what to subtract. It's simple math.

Hp: There’s a chart in the DMG 3.5 (page 198), which gives the average score for every dice-type. Note that odd and even levels have different scores. Add Con mod and do the math.

Spells: you loose some spell slots, but considering that players re-work their spell lists all the time anyway it's no different from constructing a new spell list. Of course it feels worse.

Ability scores: if you don't remember what you took when, then remove one point from the highest ability score and keep going until the lost levels are dealt with. Again, if you have even scores then you get to pick and choose. It hurts, but it's not difficult.

Personally I allow my players to run trough a session with the penalties associated with energy drain as if they hadn't lost their levels yet. After the session ends they go home and do these changes. No grumbles from this direction that I have heard of. Then again I suppose it could be the easy-to-use chart that I give to those unlucky players who have to loose levels.

And the answer to your question is: no, I don't really care for energy drain and level loss, but neither do I feel like handling my players with silk gloves.

 

[Vaxalon]

That's one of the problems with the XP system. Most people that think of XP and levels and equate it to knowlege and training gained from what you have experienced. Unfortunately just about everything that takes away levels and XP equates it taking away part of your life force.

That's why I made up my "Book of Fate" system, that ties these together.

 

[Vaxalon]

Personally, I think the reason that people hate level loss and magic item loss is that it hits the PLAYER where it hurts.

Some people play DnD to have powerful characters. Losing levels or magic items is a setback there, especially if you look at it as a competition between the various PC's.

Now I don't think players SHOULD look at the game as a competition to see who can have the most powerful PC, but some people do. I call those people munchkins, though I get some argument over that term from time to time.

To my mind, being overly sensitive to level loss and magic item loss is a possible indicator of munchkinism.

Did I say that everyone who finds level loss distasteful is a munchkin? No. So please, no straw man arguments.

 

[Altalazar]

Personally, I think the reason that people hate level loss and magic item loss is that it hits the PLAYER where it hurts.

Some people play DnD to have powerful characters. Losing levels or magic items is a setback there, especially if you look at it as a competition between the various PC's.

Now I don't think players SHOULD look at the game as a competition to see who can have the most powerful PC, but some people do. I call those people munchkins, though I get some argument over that term from time to time.

To my mind, being overly sensitive to level loss and magic item loss is a possible indicator of munchkinism.

Did I say that everyone who finds level loss distasteful is a munchkin? No. So please, no straw man arguments.

It is not just distasteful, it is unacceptable. You could lose just about everything else (items, friends, strongholds) and it could be part of the game and the story. Level loss is losing CHARACTER, and is unacceptable in a role-playing game. Think of any other system where this happens - answer - there are none. It would be like playing a skill-based system like Rune Quest - or Shadowrun, and just having monsters that in the space of a few minutes can drain, permanently, ALL of your skills down to zero. Who would play such games if that could happen? Especially if it took you three years of playing to develop that character. That isn't fun. That is broken.

 

[Khur]

Personally, I think the reason that people hate level loss and magic item loss is that it hits the PLAYER where it hurts.

Most people here, DMs it seems, don't like level loss because it doesn't resemble any sort of reality. In fact, it doesn't represent the reality of the core D&D game very well, either, because that reality isn't coherent, as I've said before. The fact of the matter is, temporary damage followed by Fort save mitigated permanent ability and hit point drain do much to represent the same sort of thing as level drain, but "feel" better to most people I know. I'll tell you reasons why I don't like level drain as a DM, who can only inflict it:

1) It doesn't "feel" like a drain of life force, because it affects actual skill ranks and other techniques the character has learned, such as spells and feats--in other words, it drains knowledge, which is not a part of vitality. One can argue these things are a reflection of a taint on the characters spirit, inhibiting this or that trait, but even that is more accurately reflected by ability score drain.

2) It makes the character weaker in a way that doesn't seem to represent life draining. When it's all over, the character functions perfectly as a character of his or her new level. With the same Con she's just as vigorous and robust, while with the same Wis his psyche is apparently unscathed. Yet, permanent loss of points from ability scores really hits where it hurts. Yet, when the proper magic is applied, the weakness goes away completely, unlike actual level drain (which almost always results in loss of XP).

3) You can do things that make some ability or hit point loss permanent in a way that cannot be dealt with via magic, to make the powerful undead in your campaign terrifying and always able to "leave their mark". Requiring the healer to make a level check against 11 + the HD of the undead is a good way, with failure on that check indicating the healer cannot try to restore the afflicted character again, at least until the healer gains a level. Experience loss can always be healed with time and effort. This makes it hard to tell a story where an NPC is permanently crippled by contact with the forces of unlife (without working something up that's outside the rules), when most of those forces drain XP, not vitality. (I realize a few undead drain ability scores, but this fact supports my point.) Refer to #2.

4) Because of 1-3 above, level drain strains the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy the game.

5) It's a pain to have one PC lower level than the rest, unless that level difference is integral to the story. The lower level character can hamper the progression of the campaign.

6) It's a pain to have a PC way behind in XP, which eventually leads to #1.

7) It's a pain to recalculate all of the required changes, no matter how (simplified using DMG rules mentioned above) of when (during or after the game session) they're done.

8) It can make a player feel like there's no point in trying, especially if that player was unlucky when others managed to remain unscathed.

My players hate ability damage, but they don't hate level drain. They just think level drain is stupid--and it's not because their munchkins (some of them are veritable anti-munchkins). It's because it's less fun than other ways of adjudicating the same idea, as I've reasoned above. A rule that makes the game less fun needs to go. I acknowledge that something that is "less fun" for me and my players may work just fine for others.

Magic item loss is a whole other thread, but I'll just say that equipment gets lost. It's that simple in my games.