Getting Rid of Level Drain

[mmadsen]

Well, again it is the complexity issue. Dropping ability scores affects magic and turn undead rolls...

I guess I don't see that as particularly complex: -1 to most of your rolls, and -1 to what you make others roll.

...renders certain feats unusable (power attack, dodge and expertise especially)...

Interesting point. That's something I might just gloss over though.

...changes encumbrance levels...

You track encumbrance during combat? At any rate, I want someone weakened to be...weaker.

...bonus hit points due to Con, etc.

That's not too bad: -N hit points (if you're Nth level).

But then there are three things that could drop the character: hp damage (if the undead steals 1d12 with each strike), negative levels equal to their character level (instant death), or negative levels equal to half their lowest ability score (death or incapacitation).

You'd only keep one of those mechanics, of course; it would be silly to keep all three. In fact, one of my goals (and Khur's too, from what I can tell), is to divorce "Negative Levels" from the level mechanics.

That would probably be the killer- anyone with an 8 dump stat is going to be in trouble- two hits by a vampire and they are down. Almost anyone would be incapacitated by a third blow by a vampire.

I'd probably reduce it to just one Negative Level per attack.

 

[robberbaron]

My twopennyworth....

I don't use "Level Drain" as I couldn't find a rational explanation for it.
My undead do ability damage, usually 1 point but up to 3 for particularly nasty dead'uns.
That said, I did use a very powerful Vamp who sucked STR/CON and an amount of XPs from its victims. Not too much, just 2d10 x 1000 XPs (horrible in 3e, but not too bad in high-level AD&D, which the game was) from shock.
All with a save vs. Death as well, so not too much of anything was actually lost.

The only other place where I used XP loss was the Deck of Many Things, but then I ruled that, because the XPs were not slurped by a creature that they existed somewhere and it was up to the character involved to quest for their lost "memory". That produced an interesting adventure to the edge of the known world lasting 5 or so sessions.

 

[LordAO]

I feel that Energy Drain is a very metagame and nonsensical ability. If you wanted to replace it with something else, the best idea is to probably go with con drain. That way you can leave all of the values the same, and it's still a very scary ability,without all the nonsense.

 

[mmadsen]

Personally, I think the reason that people hate level loss and magic item loss is that it hits the PLAYER where it hurts.

I think that's a reason, certainly, but even DMs dislike level loss; it doesn't make much sense.

Some people play DnD to have powerful characters. Losing levels or magic items is a setback there, especially if you look at it as a competition between the various PC's.

Understandably, players want to achieve something, particularly in a game that maintains context between sessions (like most RPGs). Because healing is so easy to come by, "mortal" danger is a lot less scary than losing your magic sword (earned in a particularly good session) or losing a few levels (earned over a few good weeks of play).

 

[Beholder Bob]

Harrumph! I like LV drains - used very sparingly. I imagine a PC's life as a linear thread (plastic), the level drain is the equivalent of a flame striking the center, causing it to curl up but not break, unless to much flame is applied. That period of your life that was hit with the 'flame' is not erased from your memory, but rather then having the impact of having lived it, you instead have no more connection to it then if you watched that part of your life on TV. I do not bother assigning the skills lost, but rather impose a -1 to all actions except damage rolls, and the PC's effective experience is dropped to the minimum needed for the prior level. They do not reduce the LV on the PC sheet, but until they pay the XP to reach their current LV, they have no chance to go up a level. LV drains against folks with more then 1 caster class suffer the penalty for all such classes. The victims become disassociated with themselves. They know the information related to their lives, but the emotions are seared away. "I know you are my son. Should that mean something to me?" It is up to the player to role-play that aspect. LV drain does what it does because it eats away something far more important then your LV, it eats away from who you are.

 

[Beholder Bob]

. Damn .
Double
. Post .
............

 

[Khur]

I do not bother assigning the skills lost, but rather impose a -1 to all actions except damage rolls... *snip* ...until they pay the XP to reach their current LV, they have no chance to go up a level. *snip* The victims become disassociated with themselves. *snip* LV drain does what it does because it eats away something far more important then your LV, it eats away from who you are.

Your take isn't unlike my initial suggestion, and it's certainly a valid way to adjudicate the situation. The "dissociation" you describe is one possible explanation for the phenomenon, but it still rings a little hollow when one considers the ramifications. (Not to suggest that you run your game any other way, of course.)

Experience is neither emotional connection, nor memory, nor nerve conditioning, nor any other one thing. It's all of these and more. Further, if the energy drain eats away "who you are", it would be Charisma and/or Wisdom damage (sense of self, empathy, and ability to relate to the environment accurately). Raw ability damage is not only more effective as an "in-game" display of a character's loss of effectiveness, but it also serves the role of non-metagame explanation from the perspective of characters as people in a world that is real to them. Ability damage is simply less abstract, and that's almost always better for storytelling purposes. The age, disease, and poison rules in D&D serve to support this point.

What we're really arguing about here seems to be the definitions of both XP and level. To me, the fact that there are so many points of view on this subject (energy drain/negative levels/level loss) is an indication that these terms are not clearly defined within the game itself. As I've said before, they're used in ways that conflict with one another (as are other game elements). That's unfortunate, and it can be confusing.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Khur - You are definitely correct in your view that level drain is not a very well defined (per the book) phenomena. Then again, the same thing can be said of some stat drains: charisma drain - does it water out my personality, my ability to project my feelings to others, my empathy, cause the 'pot effect' on the target (great speakers left in a stupor)? Create feelings of inferiority. And wisdom drain - do I truly become unwise, or just become more gut reaction/act before really thinking things through impetuous? Does the circuitry in my head that normally identifies good from bad ideas get fried? Intelligence drain - do I lose the ability to think quickly, lose knowledge, the ability to apply logic? These variations are all valid interpretations, but which one to use?

I stand by current use of level drain, but I can see your position as well and couldn't dispute your use of it. A drain or damage to anything that has such role playing impact requires definition by individual DMs per their own spiritual and cosmological development. In mine - level drain drains the sacred heart, while intelligence and wisdom damage harms the mentus, while a charisma drain targets your spirit. These aspects of what a person is made of are core to my game - and so the definitions work for me. That said, your system seems fine to me as well. 'sides, I love the look of fear when level drain is spoken aloud!

 

[Khur]

Khur - You are definitely correct in your view that level drain is not a very well defined (per the book) phenomena. Then again, the same thing can be said of some stat drains:*snip* ...variations are all valid interpretations, but which one to use?!

I can see your point here, and it's a good one, but what I'm really saying is that ability drain is less abstract than overall level drain. It's easier to see the effects in the game world, regardless of how it's defined. The definition could vary from character to character.

I stand by current use of level drain.... *snip* A drain or damage to anything that has such role playing impact requires definition by individual DMs per their own spiritual and cosmological development. *snip* 'sides, I love the look of fear when level drain is spoken aloud!

Certainly this is a personal decision for a DM, and rightly so. One thing is key, though: If you and your players are having fun, you're doing it right.