Ghoul Touch vs. SR

[Miscreant]

Would the secondary effect of Ghoul Touch be subject to SR?


To clarify: The target of a Ghoul Touch spell exudes a stench which has the potential to nauseate creatures in the area of effect if they fail a fortitude save. If a creature in that area has SR does the SR apply against the nauseating effect?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Interesting question.

"In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place."

In the case of, say, a Silence spell cast on a creature, SR applies to the targeted creature. If the SR isn't overcome, the Silence doesn't come into effect. If it is, the area becomes Silenced... and SR doesn't help anyone else avoid the Silence.

This is very similar to what happens with Ghoul Touch. I could see arguments either way. The other creatures subject to the stench are not being targeted by the spell, so like Silence, SR might not apply. But the stench has a direct effect on the creatures, unlike Silence, which just affects the environment.

My personal inclination is to rule that no, SR is ineffective against the stench... which is interesting, because before I looked at the wording, my immediate reaction was "Of course SR applies!"

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Hyp, is that a change in 3.5? (You know, 3.0 DMG, 3.0 + 3.5 SRDs here.) I can't find that quote in the SRD, and 3.0 sources have stuff like this (copied from SRD):

Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell's area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself....

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that's already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell...

At this point, the 3.0 DMG has an example of an ogre mage wandering in range of a wall of fire and getting one spell resistance check to resist it. Seems pretty similar.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can't find that quote in the SRD...

It's from the Magic Overview section, not the Special Abilities section.

But if we look at Special Abilities: In the case of Ghoul Touch, the "Area Spells" entry is irrelevant. Ghoul Touch is not an Area Spell.

Ghoul Touch
Necromancy
Target: Living humanoid touched

So we look, instead, at the Targeted Spells subheading of the Spell Resistance description:

In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

Targeted Spells: Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.

Spell Resistance applies for a targeted spell (like Ghoul Touch) if the spell is targeted at the creature.

I've changed my mind. It's not ambiguous at all. It's absolutely clear that SR does not apply to the stench effect.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

But the secondary effect is clearly an area effect.

Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except you) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates).

Unless you rule that this is somehow an Extraordinary or Supernatural effect...

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the secondary effect is clearly an area effect.

Certainly... but not one caused by an Area Spell.

The range of Ghoul Touch is 'touch'.

"A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted."

The 10 foot spread is not "the spell's area". The spell has no area. It causes a target to exude a stench.

That stench happens to fill an area, but it's not the spell that has an area; it's simply the result of the spell's effect on its target. If the stench were the spell's area, then any portion of the stench that extends beyond 'touch' would be wasted.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

That doesn't matter, as long as it is a magical effect (I think you're reading it too narrowly).

Consider the DMG example of the ogre mage and the wall of fire. The ogre mage gets a Spell Resistance check when he flies within 10 feet of the wall, where the magical heat might effect him. Yet the ogre mage never flew within the area described by the "Effect" line of the wall of fire spell description.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That doesn't matter, as long as it is a magical effect (I think you're reading it too narrowly).

Consider the DMG example of the ogre mage and the wall of fire. The ogre mage gets a Spell Resistance check when he flies within 10 feet of the wall, where the magical heat might effect him. Yet the ogre mage never flew within the area described by the "Effect" line of the wall of fire spell description.

Wall of Fire isn't an Area Spell, so the text under 'Area Spells' does not apply. Instead, we look at 'Effect Spells':

Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up.

Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected.

Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature.

Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.

When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school:

Evocation: If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.

Does the energy created or released by the Wall of Fire spell actually go to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body? Absolutely. Does the evocation spell deals damage to the creature? It does indeed.

But Ghoul Touch isn't an Effect spell, so none of that is relevant. For Ghoul Touch, we use the Targeted Spell text, which states Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature.

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

That doesn't matter, as long as it is a magical effect (I think you're reading it too narrowly).

There are certain conjuration orb spells that you might want to look at. The effect of the spell is to conjure an orb (of, say, acid); the orb itself is a nonmagical effect although it is produced by a magical spell, and hence SR does not apply.

That was always my understanding of the logic.

 

[dcollins]

But Ghoul Touch isn't an Effect spell, so none of that is relevant. For Ghoul Touch, we use the Targeted Spell text, which states Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature.

Well, I disagree. Will you concede that where the Targeted/Area/Effect section says "spell" it must really be shorthand for "spells and spell-like effects"? If so, you need to decide whether the secondary effect of ghoul touch is either Spell-Like or Extraordinary/Supernatural. It merely not exactly being the cast spell itself is insufficient.