Give unto me your table rules

[DonTadow]

All of those things (kibitzing, agonizing over tactics, stratetgizing) increase my enjoyment not decrease it. This means you and I cannot play together. It means I would chaffe under your so-called "rules which better the game". Do you know for a fact that the other players agree that there needs to be less "distraction"? I'm not saying your rules aren't going to make the game better. I'm saying they would not make it better for me and for people like me. Do you play with players like me?

I also play weekly and don't see the players except at game so we tolerate OOG chitchat more than some gamers. Course, we also don't take 5 minutes to figure out what we're doing. Except when someone returns from the bathroom and needs an update, most of the time actions have been planned before the character's initiative comes up.
You've never played in a softball game where if the batted ball hits someone's beer cup, the batter is out? I've seen picnic volleyball games delayed by one of the girls showing off a new piece of jewelry or something elsewhere making people laugh too hard to continue. Distractions can slow down any pasttime.
People say stuff like this all the time. The irony (for me) is that D&D was created by moving a miniatures wargame into an enclosed "dungeon" environment. This isn't a value judgement, I'm just easily amused by the irony of the statement.

There's no way to make the game more fun, or less fun. The game is waht it is to different players. I love tactics and you are absolutely correct, this thing started out as a miniature game. But I love the role playing aspect too (i played a two year diceless role playing campaign).

Playing on different sides has allowed me to appreciate both arguments. It all depends on the players in your campaign. One player in my campaign loves 2 hour long battles, another hates combat all together, another would love to see me do 2 hours of puzzles andother would like to talk to me in snake form for 5 hours. Instead of catering to one way, I try to cater to everyone at least one session a month. This next session is our combat oriented session. The last two sessiosn focused on role playing and puzzle solving. Again it depends on the players in your game. If WOTC made any rules that leaned to any particular side I would be upset. If you don't like tactical combat, don't do it. Heck I didnt even know that there was a combat section until two years from playing 3.0 (seriously I didn't). If you'd rather every move be processed in minis then by all means map away. Again, The joy iof this game is its versatility and attraction to all players.

When I go to gencon, you got all types of gamers, the board gamers who like puzzles, the miniature combat people whom like war combat, the LARPs whom like role playing... the cool thing is I"ve played at D and D tables with all of them. It brings it all together.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I know there are lots of people who don't see it that way, but don't say that chaffing under table rules is immature. It is merely a different view of "why we are here".

I didn't say that chafing under table rules is immature. I said that people who criticize others for using table rules are generally immature.

You and I would quickly learn that we can't game together. You'd chafe at my table rules, and I'd quit your game after one session of completely unproductive chattering.

My gaming group consists of friends: we go to movies, occasionally drop X or get drunk, go to see live music, play micro-limit poker, and hang out and BS. We're still friends when we game together, and we're still social when we game together, but we're there to game together. Do you only see your gaming buddies on game night? If so, I can certainly understand it being more of a gadfly session than a gaming session.

 

[wilrich]

I like a loose game. If nothing in game happens over the course of an evening of play and I've had a good time, I've had a good time. If for some reason game kept getting derailed by outside conversation, then perhaps tonight is not the night to game. That is my mature response to game being delayed by distractions. I don't usually have to sign my social contracts. Nor do I need them written down in order to follow them. Table rules tend to promote "The Game" as something more important than "The Gathering". I care more about the gathering. I know there are lots of people who don't see it that way, but don't say that chaffing under table rules is immature. It is merely a different view of "why we are here".

I couldn't have said it better myself. As they say, quoted for its excellence!

 

[buzz]

Do you know for a fact that the other players agree that there needs to be less "distraction"?

Yes, actually. I probably should have mentioned that. I've been playing with this group for over two years now, and we've never had formal table rules. I've had a number of discussions over this period with various group members about problems that creep up during our sessions, but no one ever really does anything about it. The last session we had was just so unbearable (and I could see all of the players were not having a good time) that I thought it was time to make rules. Seeing as I'm DM'ing right now, the time appears ripe. I can see that a lot of people in the group are not having as much fun as they could be, and I think stating some guidelines out in the open can help.

I also play weekly and don't see the players except at game so we tolerate OOG chitchat more than some gamers.

We play bi-weekly, and a good portion don't see each other much OOG. We allow for chit-chat time before the game, and even all sit down for per-game dinners to get in socializing time.

Course, we also don't take 5 minutes to figure out what we're doing. Except whenomeone returns from the bathroom and needs an update, most of the time actions have been planned before the character's initiative comes up.

We... do not.

You've never played in a softball game where if the batted ball hits someone's beer cup, the batter is out? I've seen picnic volleyball games delayed by one of the girls showing off a new piece of jewelry or something elsewhere making people laugh too hard to continue. Distractions can slow down any pasttime.

If you're talking about a one-shot game played after a picnic, or those nights when your old school buddies get together and break out the 1e books to run "White Plume Mountain" for the 10th time, for old time's sake, then I have no problem.

But my example was that of a regular game, such as a league, even one done "for fun". You're now talking about a decided, consistent time investment. Most everyrone at our game table has poured time, money, and effort into an ongoing campaign, DMs in particular. We've bought and read books, arranged our schedules, worked on characters and adventures, etc. I'm running CotSQ right now, converting it to 3.5. I invest a huge amount of time doing this prep work. Socializing or no, I don't get any reward on my investment to see the hours of prep I do used to give people an excuse to talk about Star Wars. I wanna play the damn game. It's not fun for me otherwise.

People say stuff like this all the time. The irony (for me) is that D&D was created by moving a miniatures wargame into an enclosed "dungeon" environment. This isn't a value judgement, I'm just easily amused by the irony of the statement.

There's no irony. D&D was created because Gygax and co., at some point, decided that they wanted *more* than just a wargame played out in a maze. I'm also guessing that didn't create D&D simply to have an excuse to eat pizza and talk about Jack Vance. You don't need D&D for that, and if that were my goal (and the goal of the poeple I play with) I wouldn't have started this thread.

 

[jmucchiello]

Yes, actually. I probably should have mentioned that.

Ya' think? My whole premise is that some people won't want table rules. If you know they want them go for it.

 

[The_Universe]

Ya' think? My whole premise is that some people won't want table rules. If you know they want them go for it.

Even if they didn't jump for joy at the thought of them, Buzz would be well within his rights to introduce them. If the game isn't fun for *him* it is as much a problem as it would be if the game wasn't fun for *them.*

 

[Nellisir]

While -I- think those rules are a bit draconian, if they work for you then they work for you.

The number 1 table rule in my games is: "The DM is in control." If the DM is not in control, the DM needs to get his rear in gear and assert him or her self. I don't have a strict time limit on making decisions, because circumstances vary. I have one player that just needs a few more seconds. That's life. I'm encouraging him to plan ahead and learn the PH. Sometimes I let the other players dither a little, particularly if it's a complex combat; sometimes I smack 'em down after 10 seconds.

I just instituted a 100-xp reward for a good joke last game. An OOC joke, even. Alot of people would shriek at the idea, but it actually helps me -- if it's not funny, I put on my stern face and everyone gets back to business lickety-split. If it is funny (and that means everyone at the table is laughing), then we all get a good laugh and have fun. (I will point out that I also ruled everyone has to get the reward before someone gets it twice, so the game clown doesn't end up 12 levels ahead of everyone.)

I don't mind OOC conversation if it's quiet and discrete, or interesting to everyone. We lost 45 minutes last game to a dissection and analyis of Star Wars 3, but it was fun. Then I cut it off, and we got down to gaming.

One thing that has helped my game is the "Players roll all the dice" rule. The players picked it up in a single session, and after three sessions, I now get dirty looks and nasty comments if I pick up a 20-sider during combat by accident. The players honestly love it, and it's significantly less work for me (All you do is substitute a d20 for 10+ in the character's AC, and 10+ for the d20 in the NPC's attack. Ditto for NPC spell saves. In PC vs PC combat we've ruled PC's roll a d20 for both attack & defense - it's pretty cool.)

Hope that's helpful,
Nell.

 

[buzz]

While -I- think those rules are a bit draconian, if they work for you then they work for you.

The number 1 table rule in my games is: "The DM is in control." If the DM is not in control, the DM needs to get his rear in gear and assert him or her self. I don't have a strict time limit on making decisions, because circumstances vary. I have one player that just needs a few more seconds. That's life. I'm encouraging him to plan ahead and learn the PH. Sometimes I let the other players dither a little, particularly if it's a complex combat; sometimes I smack 'em down after 10 seconds.

Flexibility is deifnitely part of my plan.

One thing that has helped my game is the "Players roll all the dice" rule. The players picked it up in a single session, and after three sessions, I now get dirty looks and nasty comments if I pick up a 20-sider during combat by accident. The players honestly love it, and it's significantly less work for me (All you do is substitute a d20 for 10+ in the character's AC, and 10+ for the d20 in the NPC's attack. Ditto for NPC spell saves. In PC vs PC combat we've ruled PC's roll a d20 for both attack & defense - it's pretty cool.)

Cool! I seem to remember this variant in the 3e UA. It might be a bit much to switch gears to it in the current campaign, but this is definitely something I'd like to try.

 

[Nellisir]

Cool! I seem to remember this variant in the 3e UA. It might be a bit much to switch gears to it in the current campaign, but this is definitely something I'd like to try.

Unless you're planning on ending the campaign soon, I'd say try it out anyways - maybe for a new adventure or something. It's described in UA, but it's pretty simple and easy to learn. I just scribble the "attack DC" on my notes (attack bonus + 10) and as the DM, I'm good to go.

It's not the holy grail, but it helps.

 

[HellHound]

The only rule I've had to enforce:

We are here to have fun and ADVENTURE. If role-playing your character will cause the game to not be fun for other people, it is time to change your character's write-up, hastily.