Giving Fighters Another Class Skill

[Lurker 2.0]

(as a brief note for Li Shenron and others) Knowledge (History) covers, according to the PHB, "royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities". That's the closest I've seen 3.5 get to "Knowledge (war)" besides Profession (Siege Engineer). Actually, thinking on it again, I might consider removing Knowledge (History) - as I said earlier, Fighters aren't soldiers - they train for battle, not war; and even if they were, can you really say that most grunts in Vietnam, WWII, the Napoleonic Wars, the 100 Years War, the Norman Conquest, the Roman Expansion, or any other war, really knew a) the history of warfare (from any perspective besides that of a trench-monkey) or b) what that specific war was really about or even their side's general strategy?
As far as I'm concerned, keep the bloody fighters in the dark. They don't get skills, because they don't need 'em.

 

[Li Shenron]

But I don't think any other class would fit better than fighters for characters who become army graduates (or whatever the name...). IMO the fighter class is not necessarily limited to "grunts" or tanks, but includes brawlers, duelists and archers for example, why not warlords? Someone has to be the leader in battle, and since it cannot be restricted to Paladins, I think Fighter should be the class for it.

In any case, Profession and Knowledge(History) seems much less battle-oriented than Knowledge(War) to me... at least the latter CAN HAVE something to do with battle.

 

[Ferret]

I choose balance bluff and heal,. Looking back I can't see why fighters should be trained in bluffing (other then for feints). But I can see them picking up a basic skill in healing, and balance. Not profession though. When whould a squire have any time to learn how to make a living? I can see some of the NPC ones doing that though (especially commoner and warrior), but I can see a wanna-be fighter trying to make some business on the side of there training. But not so well.

 

[pbd]

Spot and Listen

I think spot and listen should be class skills for EVERY class. Everyone can see and hear and I would argue that no class should have a disability to these skills; perhaps some classes should get a bonus, but that is another arguement. Some people are going to be observant (those that put points in these skills) and some people aren't (those that don't).

Also, I think every character should get 1 knowledge skill to assigne as a class skill at first level. How many of you have a hobby that you know quite a bit about? I think, even in the rough world of DnD, this would probably be true of most people.

pbd

 

[Lurker 2.0]

Well, as much as I may argue against changing the fighter's class skills, I ran into a dilemma in my game (which features a lot of "one 10th level guy vs 100 1 HD gobs") where I thought, "Hey, shouldn't a fighter-jockey have some idea what they're doing here?"
Hence, House Rule: Tactics check. Int+BAB, usable 1/combat, DC 15 to notice important terrain features, DC 20 to notice enemy objectives, DC 25 to find (tactical) enemy weaknesses (I wouldn't let this be a substitute for Knowledges; it won't tell you that you need a holy weapon to strike devils, but it will tell you that, for example, the ogre lines are unsteady and punching through at one point will disturb their formation). No ranks needed; anyone who can swing sword, mace, or spear knows how to best direct it; I'm considering a +2 or higher bonus for Fighters though, since they are a bit more battlefield-suited than the other warrior classes (except the MH's Marshal, who rocks, btw.)

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hence, House Rule: Tactics check. Int+BAB, usable 1/combat, DC 15 to notice important terrain features, DC 20 to notice enemy objectives, DC 25 to find (tactical) enemy weaknesses

1. The DM should never have people rolling to notice terrain features.

2. How do you prevent people who personally know the combat rules from using those rules to their best advantage (ie - 'importan terrain features' includes stuff like "we should attack downhill to gain the +1 to hit higher ground advantage", which anyone who knows the rules well will know)? I mean it's not like the "oh, gee, a red humanoid monster with wings? Guess I'll just spontaeneously pull out my cold-iron sword and cast align weapon on it for fun" that the knowledge skills are. It's a lot more difficult to tell someone that they can't move to that square because they don't know that higher ground gives a bonus, or that they can't flank the monsters because they don't know their buddy sneak attacks...

I would certainly tell a fighter character the consequences of their actions, or likelyhoods of success (like - this monster looks large and strong. It's gonna be tought to bullrush it), but that's making up for player inadequacies, not forcing a lack of knowledge on knowledgable players.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think spot and listen should be class skills for EVERY class. Everyone can see and hear and I would argue that no class should have a disability to these skills...

While this is true, it sounds like you are focusing on the half-empty glass rather than the half-full glass Don't think fighters are penalized by having Spot/Listen as cross-class, think that having it as class skill is a class feature of rogues/rangers/bards.

Also, Spot & Listen are skills usable by everyone, their most frequent used is to avoid being surprised in battle and get to play the surprise round. This use is usually (1) very frequent = 1/battle and (2) very good = get an extra half-turn and more chance not to be flat-footed when the foes attack. Compared to other skills which needs to be very high to work, S&L IMHO are good investments even as cross-class skills.

I think S&L were indeed given as class skills only to a few classes as a feature with some effect on balance, rather than for the image of the class.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I voted for Profession and Use Rope. Personally though, I allow the following option: forgoing a fighter bonus feat allows you to pick up any one one skill as a class skill and you gain an additional 4 skill points at first level and 1 additional skill point at each level thereafter.

 

[pbd]

I think S&L were indeed given as class skills only to a few classes as a feature with some effect on balance, rather than for the image of the class.

I just think sacrificing realism for a minor balance issue is a poor choice. Basically, your fighter/mage/sorcerer/cleric/paladin etc. has to walk around with a bag on thier head and cotton in their ears because it may make the rouge/bard/ranger/monk less powerful. Oh, and by the way, you barbarians (and several other classes) just put the bag on, you can hear fine.

I know this is a fantasy game and not subjetct to all the rules of reality, but when something defies logic. Perhaps instead of penalizing the other classses, the "observant" classes should get a bonus to this skill?

Oh, and I also find it particularly strange that the fighter is one of the classes that doesn't get spot and listen, since they are usually the ones that need to react first to any danger and, in my opinion anyway, would probably be very aware of their surroundings...

 

[Wolf72]

I voted for letting the fighter have one to choose (I'd go as far as to make it so you don't have to chose it at 1st lvl, can choose that skill at any time during your fighter career ... ie when you gain a level as fighter).

although spot and listen for fighters and warriors makes a lot of sense ... who's normally on watch duty for towns and villages anyway? ... the local thieves guild?