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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7606462" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Or what's appealing, sure (I recall harboring some hearty skepticism in the playtest when Mearls started going on about reaching back to early experiences with AD&D to get insight into what would make 5e appeal to new players - being a new player in the 80s or 90s has gotta be very different from being one today!). And the dynamics at the table can have a big impact. But, while 39 years (yeah '80) of experience separate me from my new-player self, only the width of a table has separated me from actual (no scare quotes) new players, since Encounters first got rolling in 2010 (well, not /first/, I came in with the second season).</p><p></p><p> Cynicism, not data, but I've noticed that any characterization of an RPG as complex, unwelcoming, complicated, 'hard' or what-have-you, almost instantly conjures an anecdote from someone about a young person mastering it effortlessly. </p><p></p><p>I have to consider it evidence of youthful enthusiasm rather than any quality of the system in question, since I've noted the phenomenon with quite a range of systems.</p><p></p><p>For my own experience, I ran a lot of introductory 4e games and played & ran Encounters which included both new & casual players, and special introductory games & Encounters/AL for the first few years of 5e (until health issues kept me from attending my usual cons). And, yes, IMX, I found that 5e was more welcoming to returning players (who, yeah, tended to be 'older'), who found in it what they expected from D&D, while 4e was more accessible to new players (yeah, some quite young, but plenty of adults, too) without preconceived notions. </p><p></p><p>That's not to say that 5e isn't accessible, especially at a mixed table with an experienced DM and/or player or two to set expectations and explain things: <u>getting that just-right balance between acceptability to established fans and accessibility to newcomers is the great accomplishment of 5e</u> there's no overstating the difficulty, importance, or impact of that accomplishment. But it is a balance, it's less accessible than 4e was /and/ it trains new players to have similar expectations & attitudes to established & returning ones. That was my actual point, that 5e represents a return to the feel of the classic game, after a really quite short experiment, not just a pendulum swing or cycle - the 4e style of D&D isn't coming back.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7606462, member: 996"] Or what's appealing, sure (I recall harboring some hearty skepticism in the playtest when Mearls started going on about reaching back to early experiences with AD&D to get insight into what would make 5e appeal to new players - being a new player in the 80s or 90s has gotta be very different from being one today!). And the dynamics at the table can have a big impact. But, while 39 years (yeah '80) of experience separate me from my new-player self, only the width of a table has separated me from actual (no scare quotes) new players, since Encounters first got rolling in 2010 (well, not /first/, I came in with the second season). Cynicism, not data, but I've noticed that any characterization of an RPG as complex, unwelcoming, complicated, 'hard' or what-have-you, almost instantly conjures an anecdote from someone about a young person mastering it effortlessly. I have to consider it evidence of youthful enthusiasm rather than any quality of the system in question, since I've noted the phenomenon with quite a range of systems. For my own experience, I ran a lot of introductory 4e games and played & ran Encounters which included both new & casual players, and special introductory games & Encounters/AL for the first few years of 5e (until health issues kept me from attending my usual cons). And, yes, IMX, I found that 5e was more welcoming to returning players (who, yeah, tended to be 'older'), who found in it what they expected from D&D, while 4e was more accessible to new players (yeah, some quite young, but plenty of adults, too) without preconceived notions. That's not to say that 5e isn't accessible, especially at a mixed table with an experienced DM and/or player or two to set expectations and explain things: [u]getting that just-right balance between acceptability to established fans and accessibility to newcomers is the great accomplishment of 5e[/u] there's no overstating the difficulty, importance, or impact of that accomplishment. But it is a balance, it's less accessible than 4e was /and/ it trains new players to have similar expectations & attitudes to established & returning ones. That was my actual point, that 5e represents a return to the feel of the classic game, after a really quite short experiment, not just a pendulum swing or cycle - the 4e style of D&D isn't coming back. [/QUOTE]
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