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D&D 5E Gnolls: Playable or Not?

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
For goliaths, I don't recall ever seeing anything to suggest their culture is thriving, and a race walking into the sunset is a common fantasy trope. As long as the long walk doesn't end until the next edition (or afterwards), no reason to get upset.

The Goliath society as presented in 5e (I have no experience with previous editions) reminds me of the Teblor/Toblakai in the Malazan Book of the Fallen novel series. A race that was once far more widespread, but is now in decline.

So I agree that a society doesn't have to be set up for success in it's current environment to be valid or interesting.

What drove Goliaths to where they are now? If their societal beliefs are not going to help them survive where they are now, then where did these beliefs come from? Is there a growing faction of Goliaths that understand they must change or face extinction? I'd play a Goliath that was exiled for understanding that teamwork leads to more success than infighting in a heartbeat.
 

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Lol guys. Criticism isn't insult. And who made any accusations, founded or unfounded?

only people making anything personal here are [MENTION=5857]Monster[/MENTION]evny and [MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION]

You are shooting over the goal. That is not criticism. The post defcon quoted was clearly insulting and not true at all. Even though I understand your concerns, it is not fair. The 5e lore really makes them unredeemable evil. And that is ok. Having a race where you really don't have to be concerned about ethics.
On the other hand, bow using nomadic hyena people are also nice as player races.
 


GreenTengu

Adventurer
I do assign weight to the second: that an engaged, creative player working with an engaged, creative DM could meaningfully play a monstrous humanoid such as a hobgoblin or gnoll, and help contribute positively to an overall story. I therefore thing gnolls should be supported -- that a half page of published real estate be given over to this option, given that there are many who *like* the mechanics for playing gnolls (I'm one of them).

Well, to be clear here... I think you missed the point. The point is that hobgoblins and gnolls are not equally monsterous.

Hobgoblins, as being presented in the current lore, aren't really particularly more "monsters" than dozens of human cultures that have existed in human history that were far from sympathetic or fair in their dealings with others. I mean, yes, you could call that a "monster" i.e. Spartans, Samurai, Mongols, Huns, Cossacks, Nazis, etc. were "monsters"-- well, no doubt so in the eyes of those who found themselves on the wrong end of their spears, but when used in that context it is understood that it refers to moral standing.

Now, in the lore they are going with for Gnolls... well, they were just normal scavenger/predatory animals until they caught a magical disease that transformed them into mad, ravaging creatures bent on destruction and devouring everything and everyone. So this is a totally different monster-- not just 'you've been raised in a sociopathic warrior culture' and rather 'your fundamental purpose for being is to do bring evil into the world'.

If you have a Drow, an Orc or a Hobgoblin-- it is entirely conceivable to shift their alignment to good while still maintaining many aspects of their cultures that still make them.. well... them. Drow can still be underhanded, charming, political and highly religious, Orcs can still be short-tempered, overbearing, daring and primitive and Hobgoblins can still be disciplined, honorable, task-driven and coldly rational. They can still retain those flaws and remain identifiably those races.

(Actually, I really have no idea why you chose Hobgoblins as your example-- they are probably even more human than literally anything else you could have used as an example, including Drow. I suppose because of the lack of any examples of the race being used as a hero in pop culture?)

Problem is that if your definition of what a Gnoll is states first and foremost that they are demon-worshiping creatures of destruction who simply seek to see the world burn... well, that's not really something you can have a good version of.


But, again, that all depends on how the setting is defining what a Gnoll is besides being a 6+' tall furry beastman.

Isn't that the whole thing with D&D? It is a system first and settings are modular. There is never any guarantee that anything stated about any of the PC races or monsters in any of the core books absolutely has to or even should be true in all settings. Which certainly creates an issue regarding what should be written there at all.

And yet... books don't have infinite page counts. Obviously not everything imaginable can be put into a single book. So something was always going to be left out. In this case it was continuing the Gnolls as PCs that was done in the end of 3.5E as well as in 4E.

Though... given that the only evidence we have on the issue suggests that there was a significantly larger demand for Gnolls than there was for Firbolgs, it wouldn't be entirely out-of-line to accuse WotC of ignoring what the customers actually want and instead churning out only what strikes their own fancy.

The best solutions would have been either
1) Include the stats for them in the book regardless with the caveat that it is not recommended that they be played in a typical campaign if you are playing them as described in the book. Kind of weird-- it requires expressly rather than implicitly acknowledging that everything written on the previous pages is not going to be the way they work at every table.
2) Simply stat that while no PC stats are being given within this book as it primarily focuses on the current edition of Forgotten Realms, there are literally dozens of races in different worlds that aren't going to be covered here and Gnoll PC stats may be included in a future release for the Gnolls of that world.

Already, inherently, you have to realize that this sort of book by its very nature... everything it covers, it is going to "One True Way" it. It is pretty inevitably going to present Goblins as though they are all one exact way with one exact set of beliefs and one exact set of customs and traditions and specialize only in one particular thing... despite the fact that Goblins are so damn ubiquitous everywhere in D&D in every environment across the world with virtually no communication between tribes and heavy influences by the creatures that live around them... that the very notion that Goblins would all be the "same" is absolutely ludicrous. If one thinks the diversity of Elves is insane, Goblins ought to be 100 fold so. Cavern goblins, forest goblins, desert goblins, river goblins, deep goblins, sewer goblins, mountain goblins... there really ought to be very few things one could say that would be true about them universally except being small, short-lived, fast-breeding, ugly and selfish.

But, instead, I bet you that we are probably going to have a single stat block, likely without any subraces (unless they do something monumentally dumb like try to force Hobgoblins and Bugbears to be subraces despite the three having virtually nothing in terms of abilities save for dark vision in common) and will present them as though not only is every tribe in every environment in every region exactly the same, but probably go so far as to suggest that every single individual within every single tribe is virtually exactly the same... and probably claim there is some list of classes that no Goblin in no tribe would ever be proficient at despite... well... again, they are short lived, adaptable, fast-breeding and live everywhere being easily influenced by everything, so that just couldn't be true.

But, at the same time, if one is trying to fit 30 races and 100 new monsters into a single book, just how would one go about presenting any sort of depth or breadth to any of them? All PC race write ups have this sort of issue.
 

The Goliath society as presented in 5e (I have no experience with previous editions) reminds me of the Teblor/Toblakai in the Malazan Book of the Fallen novel series. A race that was once far more widespread, but is now in decline.

So I agree that a society doesn't have to be set up for success in it's current environment to be valid or interesting.

What drove Goliaths to where they are now? If their societal beliefs are not going to help them survive where they are now, then where did these beliefs come from? Is there a growing faction of Goliaths that understand they must change or face extinction? I'd play a Goliath that was exiled for understanding that teamwork leads to more success than infighting in a heartbeat.

All good questions. I was thinking the Goliath is particularly supportive of the "desperate last chance to turn my race's fate around" type of quest, but I like your idea too. Slow apocalypse style social collapse is a rich soil to till for character development, particularly if Goliaths aren't a central race in the setting (which might make the DM open to specific ideas from the player about Goliath culture).
 

jgsugden

Legend
Darkvision, Strength +2, Dexterity +1, Rampage, Bite attack (d4) and free weapon proficiencies? Playable.

Fluff side: Demonic heritage, inability to fit in with humanoids that are more like humans, etc... All of that is role playing gold.

Don't overthink it.
 

Isn't that the whole thing with D&D? It is a system first and settings are modular. There is never any guarantee that anything stated about any of the PC races or monsters in any of the core books absolutely has to or even should be true in all settings. Which certainly creates an issue regarding what should be written there at all.

I don't think that is the plan anymore. If you look at 5e, a lot of it seems to be there to make it easier for WotC to design around long term: subclasses take less work then classes, few places to get feats (and few feats) so interaction is less problematic, no assumed magic items, most of the buffs require concentration, etc. Likewise, setting neutral is harder to design around then setting specific, or to be more specific, it is easier to make interesting things inside a setting. I think that is the real reason everything has been in FR, and not in Dark Sun where everyone has a psychic ability on the side or Ebberon/Planescape where a PC can hardly move for all the magic items they are carrying: FR is an easier setting to build content for (of course Greyhawk and Dragonlance would be pretty easy too, but those are separate issues). DM's get permission on top of permission to homebrew and change things, but WotC isn't in the business of making it easy for you (that is the DM guild's gig).
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You are shooting over the goal. That is not criticism. The post defcon quoted was clearly insulting and not true at all. Even though I understand your concerns, it is not fair. The 5e lore really makes them unredeemable evil. And that is ok. Having a race where you really don't have to be concerned about ethics.
On the other hand, bow using nomadic hyena people are also nice as player races.
What, in that quoted text, is untrue? Which part "clearly insulting"?

None of it.

Anyway, We can disagree about whether there is anything good or worthwhile about a race of social sentients that irredeemably evil. Probably no point in doing so, but we could and I'd respect your opinion on it. But are you seriously going to argue that it's a positive thing, not just something you don't care about but an actual positive thing for the game, that a once playable race that has been dealt with as having a demonic heritage and being able to reject and struggle against that nature, is now being presented purely as demonic abominations that can no more be anything but evil than they can grow wings and fly?

Are you seriously going to argue that it isn't better to acknowledge the gaming desires of people who like the race by including a short paragraph noting that there are gnolls, sometimes whole clans/tribes, that have rejected the demon? I mean, seriously, one is objectively more one dimensional than the other. One is objectively more limiting than the other.

The Goliath society as presented in 5e (I have no experience with previous editions) reminds me of the Teblor/Toblakai in the Malazan Book of the Fallen novel series. A race that was once far more widespread, but is now in decline.

So I agree that a society doesn't have to be set up for success in it's current environment to be valid or interesting.

What drove Goliaths to where they are now? If their societal beliefs are not going to help them survive where they are now, then where did these beliefs come from? Is there a growing faction of Goliaths that understand they must change or face extinction? I'd play a Goliath that was exiled for understanding that teamwork leads to more success than infighting in a heartbeat.

And you'd probably have written a more compelling writeup for Goliaths. Bc yeah, that is good lore. It is also not what's in the book. The fact we can extrapolate to something good doesn't make the thing we are extrapolating from good, to risk oversimplification.

I really like most of what Mearls and co are doing these days. I've many times applauded him on Twitter for a job well done, because he is doing a good job.

I dont know if any of you have written for an edited publication, or otherwise taken professional feedback, or even just read reviews, but stating that the worldbuilding of a peice of fiction is lazy is just normal criticism. I'll grant that "crap" was unuseful, but I'd have to have called them "crap" writers for it to be an insult. At worst it was a poorly articulated, too strongly worded, criticism.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go back in Twitter and tell Mearls how rad the Firbolg is, and reiterate that 5e is great. Even tho I wasn't even harsh toward him on Twitter, the reaction here makes me wonder how many people have called him the anti-Christ this week, or whatever.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go back in Twitter and tell Mearls how rad the Firbolg is, and reiterate that 5e is great. Even tho I wasn't even harsh toward him on Twitter, the reaction here makes me wonder how many people have called him the anti-Christ this week, or whatever.

I also think the Firbolg is rad.

I may be being a little apologetic for the Goliath because I love that piece of artwork that was in the EE Players Companion and is again in the Volo's preview. That Goliath deserves an epic backstory.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I also think the Firbolg is rad.

I may be being a little apologetic for the Goliath because I love that piece of artwork that was in the EE Players Companion and is again in the Volo's preview. That Goliath deserves an epic backstory.

That is some good Goliath art, to be sure.

I don't really have any specific inspiration for them in FR, and I was hoping Volos would help me with that, but it really doesn't. For me, the People in the twilight of their race/civilization/whatever thing is much more something I'm stoked about if they either are, or used to be, central to the setting. Like humans. :D

I may do some digging into Himalayan culture and go from there for my FR Goliaths. Or, I may take what's in this writeup and the EE writeup, and make it more sensible. Make it feel like a culture that can sustain itself. Probably mostly by toning down the "no elders/people with disabilities" thing, and the "literally won't even deal with you if they think you come from a position of relative weakness" thing.

A culture that idealizes competition, perhaps even holding yearly multi-clan decathalon-esque competitions that test the strength, skill, wisdom, creativity, problem solving, determination and leadership skill, to determine the next crop of leaders.
All full grown Goliaths can compete, and occasionally winners are a surprise, because someone with a seemingly restrictive disadvantage does exceptionally well in the games.

Might play around with the idea of high mountain caves, only accessible in spring and summer, where many elders tend to spend the winter, maybe even with the idea that Goliaths can slow their metabolisms, or maybe just have very efficient metabolisms to begin with.

Very little importance on blood family, more focus on loyalty to clan. kids raised communally.

Ugh. I didn't really need another project.

I will read through the full writeup, though. I want ot know what it has to say about what sort of magic they have/use, among other things. If I don't dig it, I still have a pdf of Races of Stone and the 4e material for them sitting around somewhere.
 
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