Goals of D&D: Putting Danger to the Sword

[tzor]

Did you miss the parts about treasure being the main source of XP?

Yes but what does that exactly prove? I never played the white box, but by the time of AD&D (the first edition) it was clear that not all creatures carried their treasure wherever they went tracking to the lair was vital. Even then, with the 10 coin per pound standard of AD&D, getting back all the treasure was an adventure in and of itself. The quote is from the white box, but I don't think the standard was changed so that 7,000 gp weighed 700 pounds! Assuming you found it of course.

All of these aspects of treasure as experience could just in later editions be counted as ad hoc experience awards. AD&D was always best played with a kind of "Star Trek" (TOS) mentality ... Cool powerful toys were thrown in all the time, but most of the time they didn't stay with the series. In the case of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser powerful magic items passed through their hands all the time. Note the word passed. The problem that Gary was talking about in the DMG is that this game was always geared towards tactics and not towards items. Unfortunately you can always overcome every problem with an item of a sufficient level.

AD&D had so many tactics that most players never used them. Facing, weapon speed tables, weapon against armor tables, the non weapon combat rules. Most of these war game type rules got removed from 2E, and new ones got introduced in 3E.

Actually it wasn't experience that turned adventurers into collectors in 1E, it was the magic item creation system. Sometimes the battle cry when seeing an exotic monster was "potion components." A cry that struck fear in the hearts of many a monster.

I remember one sesison where the two rangers (oddly named Death and Destruction) had weapons of enormous power, but were faced with an opponent that was practically unkillable, but massively stupid. When hammers of thunderbolts and vorpal swords were no match for this beast, they solved their problem by levitating coins of darkness (making the one eyed monster think it was nighttime and thus fall asleep) and levitating killed game animals in front of the monster's nose. Tactics, over items, proved key and the players had a ball solving this encounter.

 

[riprock]

Stop right there.

If your players are the ones telling you this, stop trying to justify your position. The absolute worst thing a DM can do is shove his game philosophy down his players' throats. A lot of us here have some strong opinions on how D&D/AD&D/OD&D should be played, but when it comes right down to it if your players come to you and tell you that they want a different emphasis, you'd be wise to accommodate them.

...

It's a somewhat obscure interest of mine. I find the old game materials vastly more inspiring than the new ones. I can use the rules-light and cinematic game systems. I can back off and let players narrate the plot. But when the players are out of ideas, I need inspiration. So this little visionquest of mine is search for more inspiration.

It's also turning into a reality check. A lot of my players really did prefer treasure-light hack-and-slash because treasure would slow them down. I don't play with those guys any more, though, so I'm trying to get a less biased view of what the game is all about.

I appreciate the input.

By the way, if any of you can advise me on how to handle treasure and encumbrance when I run Temple of the Frog, I'd appreciate your input on that thread too. It's at:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2966760#post2966760

 

[riprock]

Even then, with the 10 coin per pound standard of AD&D, getting back all the treasure was an adventure in and of itself. The quote is from the white box, but I don't think the standard was changed so that 7,000 gp weighed 700 pounds! Assuming you found it of course.

All of these aspects of treasure as experience could just in later editions be counted as ad hoc experience awards. AD&D was always best played with a kind of "Star Trek" (TOS) mentality ... Cool powerful toys were thrown in all the time, but most of the time they didn't stay with the series. In the case of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser powerful magic items passed through their hands all the time. Note the word passed. The problem that Gary was talking about in the DMG is that this game was always geared towards tactics and not towards items. Unfortunately you can always overcome every problem with an item of a sufficient level.

Looking at Vol.I, p.15, I'm pretty sure 10 gp is 1 pound. So I'm pretty sure that treasure weighed 700 pounds, and the character had to work quickly to get it out of the dungeon, being highly vulnerable to ambush all the while. If he was alone, let's hope he had a pack mule.


Actually, encumbrance is usually an issue with AD&D. When I ran AD&D in the 1980's, we had some bitter arguments. I usually tended to push for "realism" in weight, and other DM's tended to throw bags of holding and portable holes at the party. (And sometimes they would try to trick the party into putting the bags of holding into the portable holes. Those were not fun times.)

The Star Trek attitude is worth thinking about. While most magic items aren't challenge killers, there are quite a few that a disproportionately useful. The portable hole definitely takes first place. In some campaigns, Daern's Instant Fortress also spelled the difference between overwhelming victory and abject defeat.