Gods and the Multiverse

Kemrain

First Post
DnD has many worlds, and many pantheons for each. The Elves have Gods, the Dwarves have Gods, there are Gods of Men and Orc and even fouler creatures. All of these Gods are real (or at least most) and all of these worlds are real. Travel between primes is possible, so someone from Faerun could, with difficulty, make it to Krynn or Oearth. They would then be under the juristiction of that prime's Gods.

Has anyone discussed the ramifications of this? Could a Faerunian cleric cast spells in Greyhawk? How do the Gods react to creatures from beyond their realm?

In my present campaign, the GM has stated that the Gods have no (presumed to be 'less') power over Outsiders in their realms. The God of Death, for instance, has no power over Demons, given that they are immortal beings and their souls are 'different' from Mortals. This can have strange effects in the campaign (clerical spells still work on Outsiders, it's the Gods' powers that have difficulty), especially when I'm playing a Half-Fiend. It's theorized that this may have something to do with the difficulty outsiders have, even outsiders who can planeshift, in getting to the Prime...

Does anyone else have rules or thoughts about the limited nature of Divinity in DnD?

- Kemrain the [Evil] Xeno-Theologist.
 

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Kemrain said:
Has anyone discussed the ramifications of this? Could a Faerunian cleric cast spells in Greyhawk? How do the Gods react to creatures from beyond their realm?
Yes, actually. Rules were published for this sort of stuff in the Spelljammer sets.
 

arnwyn said:
Yes, actually. Rules were published for this sort of stuff in the Spelljammer sets.

Didn't Planescape cover a lot of this ground too? And Manual of the Planes?

One of my favorite bits from Dragons and Gods for Palladium, is that the gods of the dragons are usually much more powerful than their human counterparts because they're dragon gods after all.
 

I'm not sure if he got it out of a sourcebook (hopefully he'll be along to tell us shortly) but in a game Henry used to run for us, the rule was that the maximum level of spells available to a cleric in a particular world was tied to the strength (numerical) of that deity's following there.

As an example, at one point one of my characters named Darboz died, and (I think more as a lark than anything else) Henry had me carrying on a conversation with Odin while waiting to be brought back. Darboz, a wizard more reliant on himself than any outside power up 'til this point, decided he rather liked the old guy - and when he got back, he sought out Odin's following in his world. Almost nonexistant. Tyr, on the other hand, was one of the main gods of the world, and His church was willing to do a limited sponsorship for the establishment of an allied church of Odin. As Darboz gained a following for that church, he gained more of his clerical abilities. I think when we last played that campaign, Darboz (and another character of mine named Thor Odinson) had managed to earn access to up to 3rd level Cleric spells for followers of Odin in that world.
 

arnwyn said:
Yes, actually. Rules were published for this sort of stuff in the Spelljammer sets.
Spelljammer... Right... So no one has ever seriously looked at this idea?

- Kemrain the Smirking.

Don't know a thing about Palladium, and I never got into Planescape. I don't have access to any of those sourcebooks, but I'd love to hear how DnD handles it, and how individual GM's handle it. Cool idea, Torm, and one of Henry's to boot. Very nice. So, under that system, Gods are powerful anywhere you go, can grant you power across the multiverse, but can't grant much unless a lot of your friends are asking for handouts, too. Neat.

- Kemrain the Intraplanar.
 
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Kemrain said:
Spelljammer... Right... So no one has ever seriously looked at this idea?
- Kemrain the Smirking.
*shrug* Whatever.
JoeGKushner said:
Didn't Planescape cover a lot of this ground too? And Manual of the Planes?
Yeah, I think Planescape did on the deity (not character) level... On Hallowed Ground is a great resource for that.
 

arnwyn said:
Yeah, I think Planescape did on the deity (not character) level... On Hallowed Ground is a great resource for that.
On Hallowed Ground... Is that currently being printed/sold? I've never heard of it...


arnwyn said:
*shrug* Whatever.
Hope I'm not being too offensive.

- Kemrain the Outsider.
 

Kemrain said:
Spelljammer... Right... So no one has ever seriously looked at this idea?

No. Because the idea isn't serious enough to warrant it. The D&D multiverse is only semi-coherent at best. The system was not constructed all at once; it grew organically based on various conflicting and semi-coherent ideas. When much of the system was formed, the rules of the game stated that most gods couldn't cast the majority of the spells they were able to grant. So I really don't know what you're expecting here. If you're looking for something that coherently explains the physics of the D&D universe and how all the planes and gods interact, you're going to be waiting quite a while.

If, on the other hand, you want tools for handling specific questions about these things in the context of your campaign, a number of useful publications have already been mentioned.

Why is it arnwyn that we are in agreement so reliably?
 

fusangite said:
So I really don't know what you're expecting here. If you're looking for something that coherently explains the physics of the D&D universe and how all the planes and gods interact, you're going to be waiting quite a while.
:D
Why is it arnwyn that we are in agreement so reliably?
Because you're a genius. Or Canadian. Or both. ;)
 

Kemrain said:
Has anyone discussed the ramifications of this? Could a Faerunian cleric cast spells in Greyhawk? How do the Gods react to creatures from beyond their realm?

This was well-trod ground of rules and setting before 3rd Edition (which kinda ditched the whole concept and doesn't really acknowledge worlds co-existing), and was integral to Planescape and Spelljammer (maligned though it may be, it still used the same basic rules as every other AD&D book on the subject), and it was covered in the 1e Manual of the Planes. To restate the basic concepts of what came before:

Any divine spellcaster can prepare and cast 1st and 2nd level spells, even if they can't access their god in any way, shape or form, or even if their god is dead. 1st and 2nd Level spells come from a combination of training, experience, and the personal faith of the caster.

3rd and 4th level spells can be granted by outsiders affiliated with a divine being, acting as agents of their deity or middlemen distributing divine power.

5th level and higher spells require the actual intervention of a deity to grant. Earlier editions had rules saying that only certain power levels of deitys could grant certain spells (i.e. if you worshiped a demigod, you'd never get higher than 5th level spells, and you'd have to pray to an Intermediate god to get 7th level spells, which was as big as they got back then). 3rd edition seems to have completely ditched this, and the idea I don't think would work right with standard 3rd Edition.

If a divine spellcaster goes to a world where his deity does not have access, he has the spells he has prepared at that time, and that's it. When he regains spells, he can only refresh spells of 1st and 2nd level. If an extended stay is planned, a divine arrangement may be arranged to gain spells through a similar deity, presuming those deities are on friendly terms. A cleric from Oerth who prays to Pelor and ends up on Toril and finds himself stuck there for a while may find that his appeals to Pelor are quietly being granted by Lathander (and that somewhere in the Outer Planes, Pelor and Lathander have agreed to this arrangement, presumably in exchange for a favor or reciprocal treatment for any Lathanderans that visit Oerth).

If a cleric of a deity that doesn't have access to a world tries to recruit and expand his faith, several things can happen, and bringing a new god in isn't easy or guaranteed even under the best of circumstances.

First, he has to get an actual following of that deity going, with people praying to that deity for intervention or action. Since their priests won't be able to cast spells above 2nd level, this can be hard. However, when a significant number of followers are in existence (the exact number is never certain, it's DM's discretion, but a few devoted congregations or a widespread but not overly devout following could should do it), then the deity can attempt to access the world (crystal sphere).

Once this happens, the locals get their say. First, the deities of that world may object, and assuming they haven't already been warring on the new faith, they might start now, if it's a big enough issue, deities might even war in their Planes if they object to it strongly enough, but this is unlikely. If the deities don't manage to either crush the new faith or destroy the new god, the Overpower of that world gets his say.

I don't think the Overpower of Oerth has ever come up, but in Abeir-Toril and Krynn and presumably other prime worlds, a single overdeity has final, controlling power over what deities can access the world. Normally occupied with a concept of divine balance or some other concept of ensuring the continuity of their own world, if they approve, then the deity can access the world, grant spells normally, and is a permanent member of the pantheon (in the Realms, this is how the Mulhorandi gods arrived, when slaves brought in from other planes prayed to their gods for intervention and Ao let the pantheon access the world).

As was said, On Hallowed Ground was the best work on the subject, one of the best D&D books on gods ever, definitely the best from a planar/multiworld perspective. It was the book of Gods for Planescape, and included in it a comprehensive directory of every god for every D&D world ever published (and a large number of real-world pantheons too), with name, alignment, power classification (Lesser, greater ect.), and portfolio. You can probably find it for download, or search eBay. Physical copies of it are relatively pricey compared to other 2e books in my experience, because it is relatively rare and is in high demand.
 

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