Gods and the Multiverse

[Lord Pendragon]

IMC, as with other who have commented in this thread, gods are merely another rung on the ladder of "beings". They are far more powerful then mortals, and immortals such as fiends, yet they are still just critters.

It's interesting that while you may find my concept of divinity boring, I find yours intolerably mundane. The de-deification of the concept of godhead seems to be in vogue these days, but I've never taken to it. A man is more powerful than an ant. That doesn't make the man a god. Godhood is not a relative concept. At least, IMC.

 

[fusangite]

The otherness of god(s) is directly undermined by two things:
(a) the sheer number of gods in a system
(b) hierarchies amongst gods

So, while I'm not a big fan of divinity contingent upon adherence or the like, I do think that is problematic running a system like D&D's in which the gods are as other as the Christian God is.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I do think that is problematic running a system like D&D's in which the gods are as other as the Christian God is.

I agree. That's why I've done away with Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater Gods. Nor do I use any of the standard PH gods. I have a pantheon of Nine, which are Gods. No hierarchy, no plethora of deities. That's it.

In a way, I've taken the Christian concept of Godhead and splintered it into nine aspects. They are generally worshipped as a whole, simply "the Nine," which represents the Christian omnipotent Godhead. There are those who favor certain particular gods, though, as they favor those aspects of reality. And some concepts naturally conflict with each other, as do the gods which embody them.

 

[fusangite]

I agree. That's why I've done away with Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater Gods. Nor do I use any of the standard PH gods. I have a pantheon of Nine, which are Gods. No hierarchy, no plethora of deities. That's it.

In a way, I've taken the Christian concept of Godhead and splintered it into nine aspects. They are generally worshipped as a whole, simply "the Nine," which represents the Christian omnipotent Godhead. There are those who favor certain particular gods, though, as they favor those aspects of reality. And some concepts naturally conflict with each other, as do the gods which embody them.

That's an approach I heartily endorse. And again, it reminds us that we are better off building our worlds and not worrying about the structure of the "multiverse."

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

While it is a rather long read (MUCH too long to post here), I point to anyone interested in my theories to my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" webpage ...

Great post & cool webpage Maldin. Welcome to ENWorld. Visit more often, please.

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

I very much like the concept of integrating the varied cosmologies from different campaign settings. And there is no reason why you cant!

For example, the great wheel or the orbiting cosmology of Eberron are presented to the reader in a way that explains the multiverse based on a majority understanding of it's inhabitants ( or current physical conditions on that world ). While not "wrong", their knowledge might just be incomplete, limited by various factors. You can still travel from point A to point B as the cosmology describes, there just might be other hidden pathways and planes. Maybe they will never be discovered on prime world #458,112,415.

I like the idea of the dieties portifolio manifistations being the fuel that powers that dieties continuance. So - love, violence, trees, whatever the case may be - they power the divine. Faith is just a condiut to communicate and share power with worshippers, not the only sustenance for the god. A god may indeed be thought of as "dead", but that only means that no one that used to remember a god by a specific name knows of it's influence currently.

Many gods by different names ( or even slightly different portfolio's ) are actually the same being. Anubis, Hades and Hel may actually be the same entity at the core, but hold different names and appearances based on the needs and dictates of worshippers. Even mutiple afterlifes on different ( or the same ) planes could coexist based on meeting the worshipers expectations. Avatars have different strengths and weaknesses, wield different weapons - why not? There are surely multiple purposes for a god's machinations!

Mythology may either have been just fiction created to explain the existance of the gods, or be based on real stories unique to the early days of that prime world or region.

Ascension and single sphere dities may be explained any number of ways. Perhaps a diety is created when another decides to share the power of it's portfolio, fragmenting it in some way ( love - lust for example ).

There is no idea on this topic that can't be integrated and rationalized any way a DM wishes.

 

[Maldin]

Lord Pendragon: To each his own. There's a reason why multiDM campaigns are very rare. Ya can't get two to agree! ;-) Thats ok. Makes comparing notes more interesting. I must think, however, that you hadn't gotten around to reading my webpage yet. Love it or hate it (and there are many on each side - which is also ok), "mundane" is not an appropriate adjective.

I very much like the concept of integrating the varied cosmologies from different campaign settings. And there is no reason why you cant!

Its something I've always liked doing... tying things together that were never meant to be tied together. I must admit complete ignorance of anything Eberron, though. They have an abbreviated outer planar wheel? And yes, I agree that most "facts" known by any fantasy world resident would be (and should be) very incomplete, possibly incorrect, and certainly steeped in propaganda from various religious leaders (and ultimately, gods) and tainted by historical contingency.

I like the idea of the dieties portifolio manifistations being the fuel that powers that dieties continuance.

I like it as a way of explaining why some gods (Powers) are more powerful then others, power that yet may or may not reflect any correlation with numbers of followers. Of course, here we are talking about a multiverse with many gods (some of whom, as BFG says, may actually be "duplicates", ie different avatars or faces of the same god), rather then a very small group like Pendragon's pantheon or (in a few rare examples I know of) monotheistic campaigns. Of course, this may lead to interesting strategies between the followers of rival gods. Got a beef with the god of the forests... burn them down! Defoliate the planet! ;-) I guess that may be why the gods don't let on that they're getting their mojo from some source other then their followers. Followers need to feel important if you want to keep them.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Check out the ton of other cool Edition-independent stuff on my website, New Spells, Magic Items, Notoriety, Artifacts, Kyuss, secrets of the Twin Cataclysms, the Dreadwood, the cities of Melkot, Greyhawk and Irongate, and much, much more!!

 

[Evilhalfling]

my last game -
had a set of interrelated dieties (15 total)
6 of whom had aspects with different names worshiped by demi-humans
the world was human only for most of its history.
The pantheon was first detailed by a profitess and spread to to most of civilization, while the world was without magic. The gods were combined from tribal dieties into consolidated beings ( as Rome and India) When magic returned to the world the those who prayed to these widely accepted figures recieved spells. The gods were focuses of power with no independant existance from thier believers. This allowed opposed factions representing each god.
If priests came from other worlds (there was some traffic) they would have recieved spells from the god with the most similarities. There may have been some reduction in clerical power.

My next campaign
has compeating pantheons - at least 4. 1- 2 per contient. Two are engaged in religious wars but the rest mostly get along. I have'nt worked out the truth of the gods yet, since the players will only know what they are told at first. (steeped in propaganda as metioned
by Madlin

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

... I must admit complete ignorance of anything Eberron, though. They have an abbreviated outer planar wheel? ...

More like a solar system cosmology, where the various planes (with inner & outer plane characteristics similar to certain planes on the wheel) revolve around Eberron, coming "closer" at various times, facilitating extra planar travel and influence. Check out this link for an animated orrery style diagram:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/orary/orary.asp

See this link for more info:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebug/20041213a

 

[Nightfall]

Even though SL cosmology isn't that unique, I do think the fact that while many planar beings are drawn in from other places, the Gods of the Scarred Lands are unquestionably the top dogs. (With of course the Titans and even the Slacerians being close but not quite equal).

I guess for me it's more of a case where "If you come to the Scarred Lands, and you're a cleric/divine spellcaster, some things stay the same (clerics = one step alignment), some things change (druids and rangers don't need divine patrons to cast spells), and some things are just fun. (Paladins rule in the Scarred Lands. )