Golems and Slow Effects

[Devilkiller]

It is pretty clear that a flesh golem hit by a spell which causes cold or fire damage is slowed. What I'm not sure about is whether it also takes damage from the spell. The description of the golem doesn't say that it takes no damage from such spells. The SRD says this...

A flesh golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw.

It seems unclear to me. Does the slow effect replace the fire damage or just augment it?

 

[moritheil]

It is pretty clear that a flesh golem hit by a spell which causes cold or fire damage is slowed. What I'm not sure about is whether it also takes damage from the spell.

It seems unclear to me. Does the slow effect replace the fire damage or just augment it?

Replace. It is immune unless the text says the spell does something, and the text says exactly what it does here.

 

[Animal]

imho, golem doesn't receive any damage (NOR is slowed or otherwise affected) by spells that allow SR. because he is actually immune to them.
but if a spell allows no SR (e.g. Ice Flowers) or golem is hit with a frost weabon he receives damage AND is slowed.
that's how i get it.

 

[Devilkiller]

Morithiel, the golem is only immune to spells which allow SR. If I hit a flesh golem with Orb of Force, for instance, it would just take 10d6 damage. An Orb of Acid would function similarly. What I'm not sure about is an Orb of Fire (or Cold). Clearly it would slow the monster, but would it cause damage too? It would be helpful if the wording were more like:

"A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage instead slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw."
-or-
"A magical attack that deals cold or fire damage also slows a flesh golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw."

Several groups I've played with have used also, and I thought that was correct up until a few days ago when another DM used instead. The instead option seems to match up better with the way other spells affect golems. I figured I'd check online though.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Several groups I've played with have used also, and I thought that was correct up until a few days ago when another DM used instead. The instead option seems to match up better with the way other spells affect golems. I figured I'd check online though.

I've always taken "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently" to mean "do not have their normal effect, and instead have the effect described below".

-Hyp.

 

[Devilkiller]

Yes, Hypersmurf, I think you're correct. It even seems pretty clear when you look at the effects for the clay golem. Like with "A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage." the damage that Disintegrate usually does is replaced with 1d12. Looking at just the flesh and iron golems I had thought that the slow effect was something special on top of the damage though.

This led to a pretty lame spell choice on my part, Lesser Orb of Electricity. I can turn it into fire with Elemental Substitution. I thought I'd be hurting and slowing flesh and iron golems with this. Instead I have no way to hurt them at all since this is my only spell which bypasses SR. Since the party has lighting and fire energy weapons my slow effect doesn't really help them either. I guess I could swallow my pride and swap out Lesser Orb of Electricity for Lesser Orb of Acid at 10th level. I could also just be completely useless against various golems, but that got boring pretty quickly last session.

 

[Animal]

I've always taken "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently" to mean "do not have their normal effect, and instead have the effect described below".

there is certain logic in your conclusion, but "function differently" could just mean "have their normal effect PLUS effect described below" as well. no? i don't think that text specifically states that slow effect REPLACES the normal effect of the spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

there is certain logic in your conclusion, but "function differently" could just mean "have their normal effect PLUS effect described below" as well. no? i don't think that text specifically states that slow effect REPLACES the normal effect of the spell.

Consider the Iron Golem and Fire Damage:

"A magical attack that deals fire damage heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal."

Now, "would otherwise deal" carries an implicit assumption that the attack does not, in fact, deal that damage... but the only place we have to suggest that this is the case is "function differently". Its normal function is "deal fire damage", but against the iron golem, it functions differently. What different function does it have? It heals damage (and breaks slow effects); it does not have its normal function.

Likewise Clay Golems and acid, or Flesh Golems and electricity. The text makes the assumption that we're already aware that those effects don't deal their normal damage. That assumption, to me, is just as applicable to the slowing effects.

-Hyp.

 

[Animal]

with iron golem the picture is made clear with the help of such word as "otherwise". flesh golem's situation is more obscure, though.
"a magical attack that deals cold or fire damage slows a flesh golem for 2d6 rounds, no save."
maybe you're right. maybe not. i'd be more sure if i saw the word "instead" or "also" but its not there. and trying to guess what assumptions were made by devs doesn't always pay. of course, your interpretation is more viable, but doubts still remain. :\

 

[Arkhandus]

To quote the SRD, "In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below." Emphasis mine.

Differently does not mean "the same as normal". Differently does not mean "the same but with extras". Differently means DIFFERENT. The particular effects noted in the golems' descriptions have DIFFERENT effects on them, not the normal effects.

They do not deal damage normally or whatnot, they just have the specific effect mentioned in the golem's description. Because DIFFERENT does not mean THE SAME.

If the designers were saying that certain effects worked on the golems with extra side-effects, then they would have worded it as "In addition, certain spells and effects function normally against the creature and ignore its Immunity to Magic, with additional effects as noted below".

They did not. They said only that the effects work differently against golems, and differently means that they don't have the normal effects.


The "otherwise" clause in some of the golem descriptions, like here "Any magical attack against a clay golem that deals acid damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal.", just means that they're describing the fact that the particular kind of damage is converted into healing or something else, since of course, healing isn't normally inflicted as damage, and damage doesn't normally cause healing.

The designers didn't leave it unclear. The wording is clear on what it means, that certain magic has different effects on golems rather than the normal effects. The only thing they didn't make clear in 3.5 was whether or not spells that normally allow SR would bypass their Immunity to Magic, because the designers worded that first line poorly.


This wasn't even an issue in 3.0 rules, because it wasn't until 3.5 that they went and changed the wording to mention Spell Resistance as a qualifier; in 3.0, golems were just immune to all spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects, except for the specific few effects listed as exceptions. SR didn't matter; the specific effects mentioned in their descriptions just bypassed their magic immunity altogether and had their different effects on the golems, but there was no confusion over it.

It was the stupid 3.5 design change that messed up a perfectly clear wording in the first line of golems' Immunity to Magic.