Good gets the gold mine & evil gets the shaft

[Huw]

They get to be evil.

My thoughts exactly. Evil guys give up nothing except for the fact that they can't hide their evil. Good guys have to take on a whole bunch of restrictions to gain similar abilities. Evil guys don't have to prove that they're evil, but good guys have to prove that they're good.

 

[FrostedMini1337]

Evil Kids Get:

Liches
Vampires
Vile Damage
Sacrifice Things
Dark Speech > Words of Creation
Creating Undead.


I'm personally rather nerfed that Saint is the only thing you can get when your good. When your an evil caster, you can always try to be a lich. Or if you're just evil you can try to become a Vampire. Good guys get Saint, and that's pretty much it.

(Ok, they get werebear, but comon like 1 of the lycanthropes is G, 2 are N, and the other two-dozen are evil)

Edit: And when was the last time you were worried about your Evil character losing class features becaus he committed a kind act. Yeah. That doesn't come up much.

 

[Bad Paper]

when was the last time you were worried about your Evil character losing class features becaus he committed a kind act

I hold blackguards to standards as strict as paladins. Only...different.

Also, BoVD and BoED have not made an appearance in my game, because I warned the characters that I would essentially yoink control at moments of moral ambiguity, forcing them to make Exalted or Vile decisions even if against the players' wishes. Those books are really intended to flesh out NPCs, not PCs. This also helps me keep spells out of the hands of the players, like that "druid magic missile" spell, Stars of something-or-other. Some crap in BoED is ridiculous.

 

[KarinsDad]

If i am playing a non good character, no way would i tolerate [in game] a VOP to give away 1/4 off our treasure haul. If he or she does not want it , thats fine, but it is not leaving the party.

Hmmm.

I know that if your PC told my PC what to do or not do with my share of loot (VoP or no VoP), I would tell him which pier to fall off.

In a game where all alignments are allowed, the game will likly degrade to PVP if there are exalted and evil PCs in the game.

A DM should not allow this in the first place. It's fine if your players are ok with or up for the game disintegrating, but personally, I would look for a different DM. For me, the teamwork is most of the fun, not the RPing of PC arguments, nor the tactics of PVP combat. How boring.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

its easy to be evil, its hard to be good. its really that simple.

 

[kirinke]

Hmm. I'm playing in a game with 2 exalted characters, 1 demon well on the road to full redeemed status (the demon is an npc character that the dm and I share and he's still a demon, but wants to get rid of the taint) and 1 paladin. Seems to work fine to me and we're all over the BOED. I mean, you guys say it's broken and whatnot, but have you actually tried it?

 

[Crothian]

Evil has Vile damage. And good has severe limitations on what they can do, evil doesn't.

 

[kirinke]

Precisely. In order for you to really use either book, you need to be playing an all good party (or at least non-evil) for the BOED or an all evil party for the BOVD. Plus, it helps that the DM isn't trying to nerf the exalted or vile characters, but has a campaign set up for those characters to play in. You know, saving the world, doing good thing, making kittens purr for good characters and the opposite for evil

 

[Sound of Azure]

I remember a few years back when the BoVD came out and I was playing really, really good cleric character. Most of the party had so much trouble with the DM's uber-vile dragon, but I didn't.. (then again my PC was a radiant servant of Pelor...eh, never mind. )

I remember thinking later on, once BoED came out... aargh! I wish I'd had this book before! I think BoED is great if you really want to a morally pure character. But there are many more serious limitations on the behaviour of "Exalted" PCs as opposed to "Vile" characters. In both cases, you really need the co-operation of both the DM and other players, particularly if your character becomes exalted or vile in the course of a campaign, as opposed to beginning that way.

A friend of mine ran into trouble recently playing A VoP favoured soul, when one of the more mercenary good PCs used part of my friends share of the loot (which he'd give away) to buy an item for himself. It really ended in a huge argument, not pretty.

There is a reason they are classified as "mature" material. You really have to approach them in a reasoned and studied manner as a DM or player, not just as "goodies" or "phat feats". My friend, above has very strong beliefs about morality, and wanted to express that through a PC. Perhaps a mistake, but I can understand the urge.

As for a vile counterpart to the "saint", I'm not sure. There are a lot of evil templates available for evil folk to take."Saint" is however, a very strong template for its level adjustment. I would make the point though, that "saint" is very hard to qualify for, and is entirely up to the DM if the character qualifies. Personally, I add additional requirements to it, to make it even harder.

Malum, would you have any ideas for the "anti-saint"? It wouldn't seem IMHO, very hard a path to become so depraved and wicked (as most NPC villains are) to become an "anti-saint". But please, make some suggestions... I'd certainly be willing to try to work something out, keeping in mind the comments above.

 

[wayne62682]

Pretty much you hit the nail on the head... BoED is infinitely better than BoVD because as we all know, good == cute puppies and roses and evil == ugly/mean/greedy. I mean, just look at a few of the Vile feats.. they make you ugly and/or deformed, and that means that you're evil Now obviously BoVD wasn't meant for PCs to use and BoED was ,which is why it's better, but still.

Personally I'm in the camp that says disallow both of them.

Regards,
Wayne