Land Outcast
Explorer
InVinoVeritas said:
The pedantic part maybe, but the poetic part was beautiful.
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Gothic Games
- Thread starter Stormborn
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The pedantic part maybe, but the poetic part was beautiful.
Stormborn
Explorer
I have read in other threads that one of the complaints about Sword and Sorcery's Ravenloft was that it wasn't DnD enough. Now thats not really an issue given my question, but brings up a point - can a fantasy-heroic game be gothic? or are they too antithetical for long term play?
Odhanan
Adventurer
Well, the greater the pride, the greater the fall, as a Sith once said.
Seriously, I truly think that D&D with dungeons, dragons and magic is not anthetical to a gothic horror style of play. Or we wouldn't have had a product like I6 - Ravenloft in the first place.
Ravenloft, to me, isn't about terrifying the players because they're weaker and thus would be more desperate (I wouldn't be afraid as a player, but certainly more frustrated). It's terrifying because darkness surrounds them, and they, as heroes, represent one of the last hopes, the last rays of light left in a world of supernatural mysteries and horrors.
Now the question is how to play a D&D game with a gothic horror feel? There are a number of ways to do that, and the amount of wealth of magic items has little to nothing to do with it.
I think that InVinoVeritas describes some components of the "gothic style" fairly well. There should be light for us to be able to feel fear grasp our hearts. This can well be played in the context of a dungeon with loads of magic and a dragon waiting for you in the shadows. What matters is the motivation and the surrounding darkness. The surrounding must be dark, and there should be some kind of ray of light/hope to the situation. That's really well said: it's all about beauty in the first place.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
While Urbis is, in itself, not a Gothic setting, it could easily be presented as such if neccessary. I've always tried to portray the grand beauty of many places, whether urban and rural, and the generally Victorian atmosphere contributes to it as well. Just downplay the more modernist elements (not neccessarily the "technology" - just its prominence and impact on society), and it should be a pretty good fit.
Humanity itself is not presented as inherently evil. Nor is it inherently good. But there are plenty of people who are either good or evil, and some of the latter can sink to great depths of depravity. And if they come to bad ends, then ultimately they have only themselves to blame.
Humanity itself is not presented as inherently evil. Nor is it inherently good. But there are plenty of people who are either good or evil, and some of the latter can sink to great depths of depravity. And if they come to bad ends, then ultimately they have only themselves to blame.
DungeonmasterCal
First Post
InVinoVeritas said:
Dang...I wanna play in your games!
Moon-Lancer
First Post
Byrons_Ghost, the character I’m playing now is a monk who just witnessed the brutal killing of his master a silver dragon that has been slaughter. He was an orphan (yeah I know… shame on me for making a pc without parents, and an orphan no less...) and left on the steps of the monastery.
He is a killoren. At first he thought he might be an elf but so far he has found out in character that elves take 110 years to reach maturity, not 10 years as killoren do. So I’m having him think that he is dieing and rapidly ageing. Because of this, he is desperately seeking revenge on his master before he dies of old age. One of the ways he is doing this, is he is going to craft a weapon out of the dragons claws and blood and swearing that he will kill his masters murderer. He is going to name the weapon after his master, and hopefully go a little crazy. Not allot but just enough so reality starts to get blurry for him. Maybe he might talk to the weapon as if it was his old master, maybe he will cry with at night. My ultimate goal is to go into dervish, as that seems to have a nice ravenloft feel, or at least its easy to give it one because a dervish is really like a fighter gipsy. The Dervish also lends its self to a fey race imo. I am having problems understand how to make a gothic character, that’s not just a tragic character who wears black. I think that’s what I am having difficulty with. Any suggestions?
In case anyone is wondering how anyone could confuse a elf with a killoren, Under the Killoren, it says that they look like half elves (ignore the picture), so I said I wanted to play something with a high outcast rating, so now they look more like elves. They also have amazingly similar stats to elf, except for the free search, magic door. The dm houseruled, that they sleep like elves. Killoren lack a physical description text were normaly it is stated that elves trance for 4 hours, so it’s a natural house rule.
He is a killoren. At first he thought he might be an elf but so far he has found out in character that elves take 110 years to reach maturity, not 10 years as killoren do. So I’m having him think that he is dieing and rapidly ageing. Because of this, he is desperately seeking revenge on his master before he dies of old age. One of the ways he is doing this, is he is going to craft a weapon out of the dragons claws and blood and swearing that he will kill his masters murderer. He is going to name the weapon after his master, and hopefully go a little crazy. Not allot but just enough so reality starts to get blurry for him. Maybe he might talk to the weapon as if it was his old master, maybe he will cry with at night. My ultimate goal is to go into dervish, as that seems to have a nice ravenloft feel, or at least its easy to give it one because a dervish is really like a fighter gipsy. The Dervish also lends its self to a fey race imo. I am having problems understand how to make a gothic character, that’s not just a tragic character who wears black. I think that’s what I am having difficulty with. Any suggestions?
In case anyone is wondering how anyone could confuse a elf with a killoren, Under the Killoren, it says that they look like half elves (ignore the picture), so I said I wanted to play something with a high outcast rating, so now they look more like elves. They also have amazingly similar stats to elf, except for the free search, magic door. The dm houseruled, that they sleep like elves. Killoren lack a physical description text were normaly it is stated that elves trance for 4 hours, so it’s a natural house rule.
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Stormrunner
Explorer
What happened to the other monks at the monastery? Were they all killed, and Our Hero forced to flee? (Cue the theme from the Kung Fu TV show - great resource, BTW, for playing a monk character. Not the later, cheesy "The Legend Continues" one, but the original show.)
Dragonslayers probably chopped off the head as a trophy. In addition to revenge, he could have a goal of recovering his master's head so it can be given a respectful burial.
What kind of weapon? If you're heading towards Dervish, probably some sort of scimitar(s), but I could see fashioning a "spiked chain" out of dragon claws strung on a cord. Maybe something like the "lynxpaw" (Races of the Wild, p165), basically a kusari-gama with the sickle replaced by a rapier. Substitute a bundle of dragon claws for the bladed weight, and a rib-bone scimitar for the rapier, and you're good to go.
This sort of unique item would be perfect as a Legacy Weapon. Perhaps the first unlocking ritual happens when he finally slays the last of his master's killers, and the second one when he recovers his master's head. (What, you thought they'd have the head with them? Too easy!)
If they were able to slay a silver dragon (and possibly a whole monastery of monks as well), the killers were probably well-informed about their target. This wasn't just a random dragon-slaying, they went after this dragon in particular. Why? Who wanted him dead?
The killers were mercenaries, hired to wipe out the monastery and slay its guardian dragon, bringing back the beast's head as proof. As mercenaries, they may well have split up after the dirty deed was done. This lets you drag out the dramatic revenge a bit, as Our Hero must track down and confront each killer seperately. (I'm thinking of one of the Wolverine MacAlistair mountain man stories, where a bunch of bandits rob him, strip him, and stake him out in the snow to die of exposure, divvying up the spoils between them. He survives by virtue of being Really Tough, and proceeds to track them down one by one, recovering his boots from one, his shirt from another, etc. "Oh God! Who are you! Wh-what are you??" "Ah've come for mah hat.") After he's killed two or three, the remainder start banding together for mutual defense (and hence a higher Challenge Rating). But in order to recover his master's head, he must track down who hired them - and that fellow turns out to have been acting under orders from a more powerful BBEG... You could string an entire campaign out of this.
Dragonslayers probably chopped off the head as a trophy. In addition to revenge, he could have a goal of recovering his master's head so it can be given a respectful burial.
What kind of weapon? If you're heading towards Dervish, probably some sort of scimitar(s), but I could see fashioning a "spiked chain" out of dragon claws strung on a cord. Maybe something like the "lynxpaw" (Races of the Wild, p165), basically a kusari-gama with the sickle replaced by a rapier. Substitute a bundle of dragon claws for the bladed weight, and a rib-bone scimitar for the rapier, and you're good to go.
This sort of unique item would be perfect as a Legacy Weapon. Perhaps the first unlocking ritual happens when he finally slays the last of his master's killers, and the second one when he recovers his master's head. (What, you thought they'd have the head with them? Too easy!)
If they were able to slay a silver dragon (and possibly a whole monastery of monks as well), the killers were probably well-informed about their target. This wasn't just a random dragon-slaying, they went after this dragon in particular. Why? Who wanted him dead?
The killers were mercenaries, hired to wipe out the monastery and slay its guardian dragon, bringing back the beast's head as proof. As mercenaries, they may well have split up after the dirty deed was done. This lets you drag out the dramatic revenge a bit, as Our Hero must track down and confront each killer seperately. (I'm thinking of one of the Wolverine MacAlistair mountain man stories, where a bunch of bandits rob him, strip him, and stake him out in the snow to die of exposure, divvying up the spoils between them. He survives by virtue of being Really Tough, and proceeds to track them down one by one, recovering his boots from one, his shirt from another, etc. "Oh God! Who are you! Wh-what are you??" "Ah've come for mah hat.") After he's killed two or three, the remainder start banding together for mutual defense (and hence a higher Challenge Rating). But in order to recover his master's head, he must track down who hired them - and that fellow turns out to have been acting under orders from a more powerful BBEG... You could string an entire campaign out of this.
Stormrunner
Explorer
Some more ideas:
Killloren are fey.
Martial-arts movies often have a moral lesson about self-control or the evils of vengeance.
What if...
...the leader of the murdering mercenaries was his father? And he only finds this out after killing the man?
Suppose there was a love affair between a dryad and a human knight (paladin). To make her lover happy, the dryad created a "child" for them out of the essence of nature. But the knight had to leave, to defend the kingdom aganst an invading enemy.
The knight was flawed. While he believed in the ideals of Good, he saw that many of the kingdom's top officials, even the King himself, were filled with sin and evil. Yet he was sworn to defend his King and kingdom, no matter how flawed they might be. This made him bitter and cynical, and he turned to drink for solace.
On the morning of the big battle, he was too drunk to be awakened. So his squire hid the snoring knight in the forest, donned the knight's armor and went out to fight in his place. But the squire lacked the knight's skills, and when the men wavered before a fierce assault, he could not rally them. The line broke, the battle was lost, and the squire was slain.
The knight awakened, to find his troops slain and the enemy victorious. In the clinch, he had proven as weak as the corrupt officials he had sneered at. In shame and grief he rejected his former ideals, becoming an anti-paladin and a sword-for-hire.
Meanwhile, the evil invaders overran the sacred grove, chopping down and burning the dryad's tree. But a swift-footed fey (satyr or centaur?) escaped the slaughter and fled with the child. Unable to care for the child himself, he left it on the doorstep of the monastery, instinctively sensing the goodness and peacefulness of the inhabitants.
Many years later the fallen knight is hired to destroy an obscure monastery, never knowing that it contains his own son...
Lots of juicy plot hooks here. After killing the fallen knight, reading the knight's diary, and realizing he just killed his own father, Our Hero suffers a crisis of faith, forced to confront his own inner demons. (c.f. the new Jet Li movie, Fearless.) (This could trigger some sort of mini-quest or side trek as he tries to overcome the rage and hatred that have fueled him up to now.) This gives him some new, long-term goals: finding inner peace, and protecting the few remaining fey from the ever-growing forces of evil.
Does the fey who rescued him still live? Finding him could be another mini-quest.
All these years it was assumed that the knight's squire had fled before the battle in cowardice (after all, when the "knight" rode out no squire rode beside him). Now it seems he was a hero, albeit a failed one. How does the squire's family react? For that matter, how do any remaining members of the knight's family react? Especially when the news is brought by a green-skinned creature claiming to be the knight's illegitimate son by a dryad?
Killloren are fey.
Martial-arts movies often have a moral lesson about self-control or the evils of vengeance.
What if...
...the leader of the murdering mercenaries was his father? And he only finds this out after killing the man?
Suppose there was a love affair between a dryad and a human knight (paladin). To make her lover happy, the dryad created a "child" for them out of the essence of nature. But the knight had to leave, to defend the kingdom aganst an invading enemy.
The knight was flawed. While he believed in the ideals of Good, he saw that many of the kingdom's top officials, even the King himself, were filled with sin and evil. Yet he was sworn to defend his King and kingdom, no matter how flawed they might be. This made him bitter and cynical, and he turned to drink for solace.
On the morning of the big battle, he was too drunk to be awakened. So his squire hid the snoring knight in the forest, donned the knight's armor and went out to fight in his place. But the squire lacked the knight's skills, and when the men wavered before a fierce assault, he could not rally them. The line broke, the battle was lost, and the squire was slain.
The knight awakened, to find his troops slain and the enemy victorious. In the clinch, he had proven as weak as the corrupt officials he had sneered at. In shame and grief he rejected his former ideals, becoming an anti-paladin and a sword-for-hire.
Meanwhile, the evil invaders overran the sacred grove, chopping down and burning the dryad's tree. But a swift-footed fey (satyr or centaur?) escaped the slaughter and fled with the child. Unable to care for the child himself, he left it on the doorstep of the monastery, instinctively sensing the goodness and peacefulness of the inhabitants.
Many years later the fallen knight is hired to destroy an obscure monastery, never knowing that it contains his own son...
Lots of juicy plot hooks here. After killing the fallen knight, reading the knight's diary, and realizing he just killed his own father, Our Hero suffers a crisis of faith, forced to confront his own inner demons. (c.f. the new Jet Li movie, Fearless.) (This could trigger some sort of mini-quest or side trek as he tries to overcome the rage and hatred that have fueled him up to now.) This gives him some new, long-term goals: finding inner peace, and protecting the few remaining fey from the ever-growing forces of evil.
Does the fey who rescued him still live? Finding him could be another mini-quest.
All these years it was assumed that the knight's squire had fled before the battle in cowardice (after all, when the "knight" rode out no squire rode beside him). Now it seems he was a hero, albeit a failed one. How does the squire's family react? For that matter, how do any remaining members of the knight's family react? Especially when the news is brought by a green-skinned creature claiming to be the knight's illegitimate son by a dryad?
InVinoVeritas
Adventurer
Moon-Lancer said:
Just to make sure I have this right:
- The PC is a monk--values order.
- The PC lost his master--values revenge.
- The PC is concerned of his mortality--values speed, feel fated.
- The PC holds too closely to the memory of his master--values the past.
These values will be key in expressing the gothic character. It is within the conflicts between the PC's values that both horror and poignancy will surface.
Off the top of my head, the values of order and revenge conflict. Explore this. Is he willing to give up his discipline in the pursuit of vengeance? Would he turn his back on the order to vindicate it?
Vengeance vs. the past: Is he willing to give up all hope of returning to his master to make sure that his master's death is avenged?
Order vs. the past: Would he walk away from everything his master taught him if there was the chance to restore his master? Yet, if he leaves behind his master's teachings, is the dragon actually his master anymore?
Speed vs. the past: Given the opportunity to live in a timeless state with his master, devoid of anything else, would he take it? Does he fear the loss of his own life, or the loss of his master's memory?
Order vs. speed: Is it worth acting brashly if it means acting quickly? Would finding ways to prolong your life go against your code? What is worth sacrificing?
Vengeance vs. speed: How do you track them down? Do you risk being found out, if it means you might be able to succeed--or fail?
You don't need answers to these questions. You just need to ask them. Ultimately, the question boils down to: what are you willing to fight for, and what are you willing to lose in order to get it? If you fight for something you value at the expense of another, is it worth it?
(I'm thinking of starting a gothic horror game here, too... but I know I'm too busy right now...
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