Gotta get this off my chest...

[Aust Meliamne]

Please forgive the rant but…

I have a huge concern about DnD 3.5, the future of DnD, and future supplements.
First let me quote some things from Monte Cook's review found here:

The game has an even stronger focus on miniatures. 3.0 had a strong focus on miniatures, but we wanted to at least address the fact that you might not want to play the game that way. But everyone in the Wizards of the Coast offices does, and so now you have to as well. And Wizards has a new line of miniatures to sell you.

Remember when TSR became money-grubbing T$R? Out for only your money, not concerned with quality product? I've had this concern about WotC ever since they were bought by Hasbro. Now I worry even more. Strange coincidence that WotC puts out a revised version of DnD which apparently almost forces you to use miniatures (which WotC has ready to sell you). Maybe this is due to the fact that the majority of DnD players use miniatures, but it seems a bit suspicious to me.

Now weapons are organized by handedness rather than by size. Perhaps the worst change and almost certainly the largest step backward 3.5 has to offer, the new way of handling weapons causes a lot of problems. As you know, in 3.0, weapons were categorized by size, and that size was compared to your own size. So a weapon of your size was a one-handed weapon for you, a weapon one size larger was a two-handed weapon, and a weapon one size smaller was a light weapon. Now, weapons are categorized by handedness, and they do different damage based on size. Thus, it's no longer the case that a longsword is effectively a greatsword for a Small character and a short sword for a Large character. Now, there is a small longsword, a medium longsword (and by implication) a large longsword. So what's the difference between a large longsword and a medium greatsword? About 20 gp. Aside from that bit of humor, though, there's actually a serious design problem here. Because in 3.0, a halfling picks up a magical longsword and uses it in two hands -- no problem. In 3.5, that longsword (presumably a medium longsword) is -2 in the halfling's hands because it's the "wrong size." The DMG doesn't hint one way or the other, but logic assumes that you've either got to roll randomly to determine the size of the magic sword in the treasure hoard, decreasing the chances that any given character will actually find treasure he can use -- and that's not fun. It's more complicated, it's clunky, and it hurts game play.

This one really ticks me off. I mean, really. Are we really going to differentiate between a large longsword and a medium greatsword? Don't they seem to be basically the same weapon? Seems to me, as Monte said, it's more clunky, more complicated, and hurts gameplay.

The NPC tables in the DMG are now more open ended, and thus less useful. The NPC tables used to be there when you needed a 7th-level fighter or a 13th-level rogue right then and there, in the middle of a game. They came completely statted up and equipped. Now, if you want to use them in that way, you've got to stop in the middle of the game and decide which weapons the fighter uses and spend 8,000 gp on gear for the rogue. Thus, they are useless for the original goal.

I'll just say that I'm glad I'll still have my 3.0 DMG since apparently the NPC tables are now useless for on the fly NPC's.

The duration for ability score enhancing spells has been drastically shortened. Talk about changing the way the game is played. Cat's grace used to last an hour per level, mostly so you could cast it, adjust your stats, and not have to worry about it until you rested (again, it was that way to make game play easier and more fun). Now it lasts one minute per level, which means it sees you through one encounter, or two if you rush in between them. These spells have been rendered nearly worthless -- in particular a spell like endurance, now bear's endurance, for extra hit points are far more useful over the long term than just for one encounter, particularly for those who really need it, like wizards.

Were people really abusing the ability enhancement spells that badly that the durations needed to be shortened to such a small amount of time? Not in my games.

Lots of the "new" material in the DMG is just pulled in from other products -- prestige classes from the various 3.0 supplements, a big chunk of the Manual of the Planes, and the traps from Song and Silence. Lots of D&D fans already own this material.

This annoys the hell out of me too. I spent money on those supplemental books thinking it was going to be a one time thing (back when I thought WotC’s policy was not to republish hardly anything from other sources). Now this. Which leads me into my next concern…

I wonder about the supplements coming out in the future. Take the Complete Warrior for instance (due out in December based on enworld.org’s news page).

This title was not only compiled from various D&D sources, but contains new features as well, including new battle-oriented classes, combat maneuvers, feats, and equipment. The prestige classes included have been revised and updated based on player feedback……The previously published information in this title was compiled from various D&D class books, campaign setting products, and Dragon magazine.

This book has more already published material, revised and updated (hooray. I’m sure I wouldn’t be able to update stuff from Sword and Fist and Dragon Magazine to 3.5 without this book ). Now I know I don’t have to buy any of this stuff, but come on now. You know that WotC will put some pretty cool stuff in future books, but I don’t think I should have to feel torn between paying around $20-$40 for a book for some cool stuff at the same time paying for some crappy stuff too.

One last thing from Monte:

Should you buy 3.5? Frankly, of course you should. The books are out, and if keeping up with future D&D and d20 products is important to you, you'll want to know what's up. And, once you finally get up to speed on the changes and toss out the bad ones, your game will be fine. In some ways, it will be better than it was. I predict that the majority of existing players out there will buy 3.5, and then house rule some of it back to 3.0. House rules, in fact, will become much more varied and prevalent from this point on -- but that's a whole 'nother article.

Sure, I’ve got my 3.5 books on preorder (should be in next week sometime), but should I have to house rule the hell out of a supposed revised, updated, and more streamlined edition. If it’s streamlined and easier, why will we need to house rule it to satisfy ourselves? I didn’t have to house rule hardly anything when I started playing 3.0. And maybe it’s a case where I have the old 3.0 way that works just fine, and don’t see the need to change some things. I don’t know, but I’ll be keeping an eye on what happens with upcoming products. Gotta see if Ha$bro turns WotC into Want only the Cash.

What does everyone else feel?

 

[sithramir]

Please forgive the rant but…

I have a huge concern about DnD 3.5, the future of DnD, and future supplements.
First let me quote some things from Monte Cook's review found
Remember when TSR became money-grubbing T$R? Out for only your money, not concerned with quality product? I've had this concern about WotC ever since they were bought by Hasbro. Now I worry even more. Strange coincidence that WotC puts out a revised version of DnD which apparently almost forces you to use miniatures (which WotC has ready to sell you). Maybe this is due to the fact that the majority of DnD players use miniatures, but it seems a bit suspicious to me..

They can only try to satisfy some of the people some of the time. Not all of the people all of the time. If the majority use miniatures then its easier for them to bring that into the game. They should still make it so it can be done without it which they do. Yes they want us to buy their miniatures so they can make more money. I'd hate to see that company fall. I don't agree with their marketing strategy but the are out to make money and you'd be surprised how much money they DON"T get from selling their books even at 30 bucks a pop. Printing color hurts.

This one really ticks me off. I mean, really. Are we really going to differentiate between a large longsword and a medium greatsword? Don't they seem to be basically the same weapon?

No. Not even remotely close. Definitely not close enough to be the way 3.0 was used. A medium greatswords handle would be MUCH longer than that of a large longsword. Plus the sharpness, weight, and most importantly BALANCE would not work. This may have added "complications" but it now fits with the fantasy world.
Did you ever worry about a piercing weapon used by someone small as a longsword. That piercing weapon is now suddenly slashing? I don't think so. The blades sharpness is intended to pierce and its edge isn't as sharp and would dull easier. This takes that into account.

Were people really abusing the ability enhancement spells that badly that the durations needed to be shortened to such a small amount of time? Not in my games..

YES. The spells were taking care of magic item slots like gloves of dex by lasting all day. Perhaps makign 1min/level is too far but it was something that was overly used. Not in your game so why do you care? They can still use it just not for hours at a time. Your mage doesn't NEED all day dex/con/int/str boosts up or one or two of what they want. They still have them for combat uses so endurance is still there.

One last thing from Monte:
Sure, I’ve got my 3.5 books on preorder (should be in next week sometime), but should I have to house rule the hell out of a supposed revised, updated, and more streamlined edition. If it’s streamlined and easier, why will we need to house rule it to satisfy ourselves? I didn’t have to house rule hardly anything when I started playing 3.0. And maybe it’s a case where I have the old 3.0 way that works just fine, and don’t see the need to change some things. I don’t know, but I’ll be keeping an eye on what happens with upcoming products. Gotta see if Ha$bro turns WotC into Want only the Cash.

What does everyone else feel?

I dislike a lot of the things but I feel the game is a lot more balanced. A lot of people want to house rule without even trying the game as it is for several months to see how it works. You can house rule all you want but give it a chance because its not their fault you refuse to even try it the way they sold it.

If you still don't like it then house rule it and thats life. Again they have to please some of the people some of the time and what you don't like others do so they have to go off what they feel is the best for their books. Be happy they added a lot of content and organization to the books that helps a lot.

They are doing this for the cash and thats sad, but they are a business. At least the took what a lot of people complained about and tried to address it. They aren't perfect either.

Please remember tons of people are arguing over different things but those people who dislike it are usually a small ammount to the total who don't voice their opinions or who accept it.

 

[Aust Meliamne]

Yeah, I agree that they are a business and need to make money. I'm probably just over reacting to some things I've heard and read. I'll definitely give the game a chance as it's written before I look at house rulling anything.

 

[Pax]

Remember when TSR became money-grubbing T$R? Out for only your money, not concerned with quality product?

Oh, you mean, teh day the company was founded? Face it: TSR was a business, and it's goal was, first and foremost, to make a profit. TSR's latter days were marred solely because the people making the decisions didn't understand what the gaming publis REALLY wanted, and drove their product into the ground.

I've had this concern about WotC ever since they were bought by Hasbro.

I'll admit to sharing that concern, but for different reasons; WOTC and Hasbro are the same in one way: they exist in order to generate profit.

The difference is, WOTC knows gamers, and Hasbro might not. So far, Hasbro has been smart enough not to intrude too much in terms of what does or doesn't see the light of day.

Now I worry even more. Strange coincidence that WotC puts out a revised version of DnD which apparently almost forces you to use miniatures (which WotC has ready to sell you). Maybe this is due to the fact that the majority of DnD players use miniatures, but it seems a bit suspicious to me.

Bah. Use monopoly pieces. Use toy plastic soldiers. Use the little people-figures from Lego. Use scraps of paper. Heck, use old DICE.

We've done 'em all; I've played BattleTech that way (the classic FASA version), and that is nothing BUT a miniatures game.

This one really ticks me off. I mean, really. Are we really going to differentiate between a large longsword and a medium greatsword?

Compare the size of a human's hands to those of a halfling. Major difference there, right?

Compare the hilt/grip/etc part of a toy sword meant for, say, a six or seven year old kid in real life, to the hilts of a sword sized for adults; major difference, right? Even when the blades are of generally-identical length.

The grips are different. Now, you can simply rule that a MAGIC weapon resizes to suit it's wielder, just like magic armor does, and that +2 Longsword is just that, no matter who wields it ... a halfling or a human or an ogre.

Or you can use the rules (as I've heard the situation explained) where they suggest those very equivalencies: a medium shortsword and a small longsword are, functionally, the same weapon. The application of a little GM judgement and common sense can go a loooong way, after all.

Don't they seem to be basically the same weapon? Seems to me, as Monte said, it's more clunky, more complicated, and hurts gameplay. I'll just say that I'm glad I'll still have my 3.0 DMG since apparently the NPC tables are now useless for on the fly NPC's.

Funny; I've NEVER put an NPC in a situation where there could be combat, without having all the information I needed ready to go BEFOREHAND ... so I never USED the old NPC tables, not once.

Do your prep work before the game, not during.

Were people really abusing the ability enhancement spells that badly that the durations needed to be shortened to such a small amount of time? Not in my games.

I half agree; I'll be bumping these spells to 10 minutes per level; I like encouraging actual purchase of actual items to boost attributes, but I don't think 1 minute per level is fair, either. At 1 minute per level, I'd say they were 1st level spells.

This annoys the hell out of me too. I spent money on those supplemental books thinking it was going to be a one time thing (back when I thought WotC’s policy was not to republish hardly anything from other sources). Now this. Which leads me into my next concern…

Jeeze, get a grip, will ya?

I bought the 1E PHB, DMG, MM1, MM2, WSG, DSG, FF, De&De, and so on.

Then 2E came out, and I bought the 2E PHB, DMG, MM (hardcover only), L&L, all the Race books, and most of the class books (I missed form barbarian/ninja onward) ... along with a few of the green-cover setting books and blue-cover DM supplements. Along with several other products (Faiths and Avatars was one of my favorites ... just in terms of how MUCH rules-meat they packed into the book ...)

Now 2E is out, and I've bought a lot of THAT, too.

You know what? I don't care. I'm truly poor (my annual income is just about HALF the US Federally-listed "poverty level"), yet, I don't regret the money I spent on products I felt were worthwhile at the time of purchase.

As far as new books: I'll look them over, and if the WHOLE is worth my money, I'll buy it. If it's not, I won't; WOTC isn't going to send out dark-elf hit squads to shoot people who don't buy the new products, for heaven's sake!

I had already planned a massive revision of the rules, as part of a campaign world I'm building. 3/5 only makes my work different, and a bit bigger; while I disagree with some individual changes ... I'm not going to run around in circles crying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" over it.

I'll just quietly change what I dislike, and vote with my wallet WRT what's good and what's crap.

 

[Aust Meliamne]

You guys make valid points. Like I said, I'm probably over reacting. I appreciate everyone hearing me out (and helping me see the light).
Please, what do the rest of you think?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

If it's any consolation, 1e was very much like a minis game when it came to combat, or at least you could clearly see D&D's roots in minis games with 1e. Movement was in inches, and there were a few references here and there to abilities that apparently were holdovers from minis games - the 1e Monster Manual, in the Elf section, says elves could move, fire their bows, and move back, for example.

In the decade plus I played and DMed 1e, I (almost)* never used minis. As a DM, I simply kept track of everything and everyone on a piece of graph paper with a pencil. So the notion that one "has" to use minis is illusory.

* I say "(almost)" because very, very rarely we'd use something to delineate where everyone was positioned during particularly tricky encounters. Even then, we usually used whatever we had at hand, not minis.

 

[Duncan Haldane]

This one really ticks me off. I mean, really. Are we really going to differentiate between a large longsword and a medium greatsword? Don't they seem to be basically the same weapon?

If magic items resize then won't a magic sword resize?

Duncan

 

[MerricB]

Re: Re: Gotta get this off my chest...

If magic items resize then won't a magic sword resize?

Duncan

In 3.5E, neither magic armour nor magic weapon resize.

Andy Collins has suggested that it's a good idea to create a "resizable" armour and weapon feature - something you can add to a magic weapon in the same way you add "vorpal".

I expect that this is an area that will be house-ruled.

Cheers!

 

[rushlight]

Why are people complaining so much about this whole mini thing? I'm sure a large percentage of people already used minis. On top of that, WOTC only used to be the only company producing minis. Now there are two or maybe three companies that make them. Oh wait, there's LOTS of companies that make minis. And some that make little cardboard deals, like SJ Game's "Cardboard Heroes" line, or those "Creature Collections" which are very good. WOTC doesn't have a monopoly on the mini world, and they don't sell battlemaps either. So I seriously doubt that the inclusion of better mini rules was a monetary decision. It's most likely because they were inundated with requests for clearer rules on mini use.

 

[Angcuru]

Heck, I used to have a DM who used poker chips to keep track of marching order. Makeshift minis abound.