Grab from Above - How to do it?

[Rechan]

Here's the situation.

The PCs are moving through an abandoned town. Two gargoyles are going to swoop down from behind, snag a PC (likely one 'goyle per arm), and continue flying up into the air.

How do I do this, rules wise? Should both gargoyles make grapple attacks? Should anyone on the ground get an AoO as they pass by? What?

 

[mvincent]

Here's the situation.

The PCs are moving through an abandoned town. Two gargoyles are going to swoop down from behind, snag a PC (likely one 'goyle per arm), and continue flying up into the air.

How do I do this, rules wise? Should both gargoyles make grapple attacks? Should anyone on the ground get an AoO as they pass by? What?

It sounds like the Gargoyles would want to have a surprise round, which they could use to charge and grapple (hopefully avoiding any AoO's for starting the grapple because their target is flat-footed). Once they have grappled someone, they could then use a standard action (on the following round) to move the grapple (as per the grapple rules). However, they could have some problems if their initiatives are low (like suffering attacks while near the ground, and AoO's as they try to move the grapple).

This option is better for huge creatures with snatch (or improved grab) and flyby attack.

 

[Rechan]

The goyles would need to be operating on surprise, yes.

I was hoping for them to be able to just do it all on the surprise round, so the PCs don't realize one of their own is snagged until they see the 'goyles pass over their heads. And she screams, that is.

I looked over the snatch rules, but something needs to be gargantuan or bigger to snatch medium level people. Definitely not something I can use.

 

[Bad Paper]

First, you have to design the flight path of the gargoyles. Let's pretend that they swoop vertically downward, grab your guy, then take off.

They have average maneuverability and 60' speed. They do not have Flyby Attack, Improved Grab, Improved Grapple, or anything nice like that.

Starting 45' off the ground, the gargoyles fly straight down toward a point 5' in front of the target PC. When they enter that square, they then each burn 10' more of movement turning in place from straight down to straight level. They then move 5' forward to enter the PC's space (well, let's assume that the spaces are offset so that they can be side-by-side and do this) and initiate a grapple. Standard action to grab him.

Next round, they can fly away at half-speed at a 60 degree angle up. This means that a double move that round would put them about 50' off the ground and 30' horizontally away from the pickup point.

Now that we have settled flight path, you will have to decide things like awareness, surprise, etc. Yes, there are AoO for anyone who is not flat-footed (including the victim!). And yes, these are grapple checks. Note that if the PC (including gear) weighs more than 132 pounds, then the gargoyles will be pushed out of Light Load into Medium or even Heavy. I know that that will affect flight speed, but I don't know the rules about whether encumbered creatures can fly at all.

Assuming they can fly with a heavier load, and assuming the weight reduces their movement to 40', then a post-pickup double move would put them only 35' off the ground and 20' away horizontally.

EDIT: Doing this in a surprise round isn't really possible. Because they do not have Flyby Attack, they must conform to the move/std-action model. There will be a round boundary either before or after the grapple.

ANOTHER EDIT: Oh yes, mvincent is using the grapple rules. OK, so they can switch off on their standard/move actions to move the victim, like Gar1 uses std to move the victim while Gar2 uses move to keep up, then Gar 2 uses std to move the victim and Gar1 uses move to keep up. exhausting. And, of course, they are very slow. If they are encumbered, then they are only 15' off the ground and 10' over horizontally after one round of dragging away the victim. Hopefully you try this on someone Small, so that they can at least get 25'/15' away.

 

[Rechan]

Now that we have settled flight path, you will have to decide things like awareness, surprise, etc. Yes, there are AoO for anyone who is not flat-footed (including the victim!). And yes, these are grapple checks. Note that if the PC (including gear) weighs more than 132 pounds, then the gargoyles will be pushed out of Light Load into Medium or even Heavy. I know that that will affect flight speed, but I don't know the rules about whether encumbered creatures can fly at all.

Does it at all effect this given that there are two of them lifting up the PC? How do encumbrance rules operate when there are more than one person lifting something?

Also, how would this change if the gargoyles were instead using something like a net, or a blanket stretched between them? Something to 'scoop' the person up?

 

[frankthedm]

1. be larger than your victim
2. Have improved grab /snatch feat
3 Have Flyby attack

Using flyby attack, atatck foe, establish an improved grab. Unlike Normal grapples, improved grab lets the grabber move during the grab if it can drag the victim's weight.

 

[Bad Paper]

Does it at all effect this given that there are two of them lifting up the PC? How do encumbrance rules operate when there are more than one person lifting something?

If you check the encumbrance chart, you will see that I split the weight evenly between the gargoyles.

Also, how would this change if the gargoyles were instead using something like a net, or a blanket stretched between them? Something to 'scoop' the person up?

Well, then it becomes something totally different: a weapon attack. The most lenient I would be with a blanket is -4 to attack for an improvised weapon. Perhaps you have to invent a weapon, because a net simply entangles the target. You would need some way to attach the net to the gargoyles for easy lifting and carrying. And of course, since then you have something attached to the bad guys, the PCs can grab one and drag it down...

 

[Aestolia]

If 2 gargoyles isn't much of a challenge for the pc's. You could jack them up a bit, give them fly by attack, so they can do the swoop'n'grab in one round.

 

[Rechan]

If 2 gargoyles isn't much of a challenge for the pc's. You could jack them up a bit, give them fly by attack, so they can do the swoop'n'grab in one round.

Two gargoyles are a challenge. Well, that and the ash demon (CR 4).

5 4th level PCs. I just want the encounter to be a little more than 'monster!' 'Hit it!' 'they die two rounds later'. I was hoping for a more hit-and-run style fight, along with the Pcs trying to save the snatcehd PC.

 

[Aestolia]

just tack on the feat anyways *shrugs* chalk it up to GM / Story hook. Adding that one feat (if you only use it for your snatch and grab) won't unbalance the creature.