Grapple a mounted opponent

[brehobit]

OK,
Today we confused grappling a mounted opponent vs. tripping one, so my clawfoot-mounted halfing was basically immune to grapples today... Handy given that every single opponent had improved grapple.

That said, how is grappling a mounted opponent supposed to work?

Here is my best guess:
Say "B" is mounted and "A" has Improved Grapple.

Grapple is started by touch attack by "A". If successful an opposed grapple check occurs. Being mounted has no impact on this check. If "A" succeeds, "A" may do normal unarmed damage. Up to this point, the fact that "B" is mounted has changed nothing.

Now if "A" wishes to maintain the grapple, "A" must move into "B"'s space. At this point an attack of opportunity would be provoked from the mount.

Now "A", "B", and the mount are all in the same space (assume a medium mount) but as the mount is not in the grapple it appears to be able to full attack "A" at will. (And actually at a bonus because "A" gets no dex bonus.)

What if the mount moves on it's turn? Do "A" and "B" move along? Does that movement provoke for all 3? Is the mount's movement limited by the combined weight of "A" and "B"?

Ick....

Thanks,
Mark

 

[kjenks]

Basically, the rules don't say.

An opponent might be able to complete grapple steps 1 through 3, but not step 4.

A DM might decide that the opponent can complete step 4 and end up sharing a square with the horse and the rider, but this is problematic. Picture what happens if a wizard sends his tiny, invisible familiar into an enemy's square to attack, then the wizard's buddy, a fighter, grapples the familiar. The fighter can complete steps 1-3 with no trouble, but can he complete step 4? This is pretty much analogous to the "grappling the rider" situation.

Improved Grab is even more unclear, since the grabber does not need to move into the grabee's square(s). But the Improved Grab and grapple rules do not have a mechanism for unseating a rider; that mechanism is in the Trip and Ride rules.

Personally, I think that riding a mount makes you pretty much immune to grapple attacks. I think an opponent must unseat you from your mount (by Trip opposed with a Ride check) before grappling you.

And I think that a monster trying to use Improved Grab on a rider must grab the mount, not the rider. (And Improved Grab doesn't usually work on a creature the same size as the grabber, making it a bit more difficult for most monsters.)

But there's enough gray area in the rules to make this a DM call.

 

[brendan candries]

rules of the game ...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a

doesn't seem to help either.

 

[mvincent]

rules of the game ...

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a

doesn't seem to help either.

This other RotG article has a little bit:
"If you and the foe grappling you are both aboard the same mount, the mount's movement doesn't affect the grapple. If the foe that is grappling you isn't aboard your mount, your mount cannot move away unless you fall off or escape the grapple first. The time you take escaping the grapple limits your mount to a single move. You can instead try to move your opponent. To do so, you must first win an opposed grapple check. If you succeed, your mount can make a single move, dragging your and your foe along (subject to its carrying capacity)."

 

[kjenks]

Sadly, those Rules of the Game articles are so full of errors and contradictions that they're worse than useless. The reader must track down every single rule reference to see whether it's a direct quote or the author's wild interpretation or a flat-out mistake. It's sad, really.

 

[brehobit]

Thanks for the thoughts folks.

This is pretty important for our game as we look like we will be facing lots of grapplers, and my halfing is planning on staying mounted whenever possible (which is most of the time). Does anyone else have any ideas about this?

Mark

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Well,

As a simple house rule I would simply treat the target as if they were the size of the mount. This should fairly easily simulate the difficulty of grappling with a mounted opponent given the height advantage and secure position they have.

Generally though a hand to hand opponent is going to try to Trip to get you out of the saddle and then Grapple once you're on the ground. It's just going to make his life so much easier.

Jack (who's much more likely to run away and attack at range then try this crazy stunt)

 

[Jhulae]

Yes, I'd like to know some good answers for this too, as I'm playing a Knight who had three scrubs recently try to grapple her off her heavy warhorse. I thought the horse should get an AoO as the grapplers would be coming into her (and the horse's) square.

I also think she should get some kind of bonus to avoid being grappled while she's on the horse (as the horse just isn't standing still).

Someone who's excellent with the rules (Hyp, I'm looking in your directon ), please reply.

 

[kjenks]

Yes, I'd like to know some good answers for this too, as I'm playing a Knight who had three scrubs recently try to grapple her off her heavy warhorse. I thought the horse should get an AoO as the grapplers would be coming into her (and the horse's) square.

See, even after grappling the rider (successfully completing steps 1 through 3), the grappler can't actually enter the horse's square, by the rules. So he can't complete grapple step 4. As you can see from step 4, this means he must let go.

A DM is, of course, free to make up his own rules, but I don't see anything in the core rules that allows a monster to grapple two creatures at the same time, or to use anything other than a trip attack to unmount a rider.

 

[Jhulae]

Ah, I see. Very nice.

And, since moving into the horse's square occurs on the same turn, the most a grappler could do is damage me 'as an unarmed strike' (step 3), before having to let go.

But, now my DM is saying that since I "share the same space as my horse", the grappler can achieve Step 4, as "moving into my space" would be the same as moving into the horse's space.