Grapple/Power Attack?

[kjenks]

I see your logic, and I agree that the rules need clarification. There are conflicts and unclear sections within the rules.

The PH says a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. It does show that grapple checks have a different size modifier than other melee attacks, but it doesn't list any other differences.

Melee attacks have some characteristics to them that they definitely share with grapple checks, including BAB, Str modifier, a size modifier. Melee attacks have other characteristics that they MIGHT share with grapple check, like attack bonuses from morale (Bless, Bard song), luck (Prayer), circumstance (prone attacker, charging, flanking, higher ground) and attack penalties from fear effects and other conditions (shaken, frightened, dazzled, energy drained, etc.) and from using feats (Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, etc.). Melee attacks also have auto-success (and threaten a critical) on a natural 20, auto-fail on a natural 1.

So what should we do with all that? In the confusion generated by the schizophrenic FAQ and in the absense of any other core rules, should we ignore these kind of characteristics of melee attacks and pretend that line in the PH doesn't exist? ("A grapple check is like a melee attack roll.") Or should we try to treat grapple checks like melee attacks as much as possible?

There isn't much we can do in the present situation other than try to use the rules as written, including the PH, the old 3e FAQ, the new 3.5e FAQ, and the Rules of the Game articles, to make the best decision we can.

So I wouldn't complain about a DM making a different decision, but until we get something clearer, I'll continue to use the written rules I mentioned above, rather than trying to make up my own rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So what should we do with all that?

What, indeed!

This *is* something that could benefit from a little clearing up.

pretend that line in the PH doesn't exist? ("A grapple check is like a melee attack roll.") Or should we try to treat grapple checks like melee attacks as much as possible?

Good question. I see where you've decided to draw your line, and understand why you've done so. Thanks for helping me understand your position.

My line is in a somewhat different place. Specifically, I don't like the auto-success / failure for grapple checks, and rule that, while grapple checks are "like melee attack roll," they are also like opposed checks. They don't get all the benefits of actual melee attack rolls, but neither do they suffer all the penalties of the same (i.e., aren't subject to concealment miss chances once established, for instance).

 

[Diirk]

The only objection I have to power attacking in grapples, is its extremely disadvantageous to smaller creatures... that 14th lvl gnome fighter in fullplate, tower shield with the 40+ ac (just an example), yet only has a grapple check of 12 (-4 size, +14 BAB, +2 str.. ok, he's not very strong, I'll get to that later) vs the CR 7 huge earth elemental with a grapple check of +29... well the earth elemental could full power attack and still have a 70% chance of hitting on its first grapple check (50% 2nd, 26% 3rd)

Compare it with a more appropriate CR 11 elder earth elemental (which is still quite below his power level). This time our gnome has 20 str.. quite good for a gnome ! (12 starting.. damn point buy! +6 item, +2 level raises) This gives him a grapple check of +15. Unfortunately the earth elemental is at +37, meaning it could power attack for +18 and win 66%, 42%, 22% and 9% of grapples each round. Altho its probably more advantageous to power attack for less... say +10 gives it 91%, 77%, 57%, 34%.

I don't like our poor gnomes chances.

Of course its even worse for small sized arcane casters and the like.

(PS If you apply all melee attack benefits to a grapple check as some suggest.. should you apply the +1 to hit bonus for being small to the grapple check too? Effectively lowering the small penalty to grapple checks to -3? )

 

[Kemrain]

Taking these two nuances together, if you take a penalty from all of your attack rolls (including your grapple checks) you can get a one-for-one bonus on your damage rolls while grappling. That actually balances out pretty well in practice because that penalty lasts until your next round, making it easier for the defender to escape the grapple on his turn.

This seems fair, if you take the power attack penalty into account when the opponent you're grappling's turn comes around and tries to grapple you, or escape your grapple. If you took full power attack penalties, you keep the penalty against their grapple checks. If that is included, I think it's a fine and fair rule.

If you apply all melee attack benefits to a grapple check as some suggest.. should you apply the +1 to hit bonus for being small to the grapple check too? Effectively lowering the small penalty to grapple checks to -3?

Sure, why not? I don't have my book infront of me, so I'm going on a gut reactions, here. Does the book say that the grapple size mods replace the normal size mods, or does it just say to add them?

- Kemrain the Pinned.