Grasp of the Grave - are miss and hit virtually the same?

[spinmd]

So one of my players wants to take Grasp of the Grave from Dragon #372. On a hit, the power does necrotic damage and dazes the creature until the end of the wizard's next turn. On a miss, the power does the same necrotic damage. Then there is an effect that creates a zone and if a creature enters or starts there turn in the zone, they take necrotic damage and are dazed until the end of the wizard's next turn.

So, unless I am misunderstanding the power, a hit will cause:
Necrotic damage + daze (from hit) + zone necrotic damage

A miss will cause:
Same necrotic damage + daze (from starting in zone) + zone necrotic damage.

The creatures experiences the same damage and effects, whether the power hits or misses.

I guess one could argue that on a miss, the creature can get some friendly forced movement or a move action off turn to get out of the zone before their turn starts to avoid the daze, but those circumstances would be rare. Also, the creature missed does not lose the ability to make immediate actions or opportunity actions until their turn starts, but I am questioning whether that is a big difference or not.

So, am I missing something here? If not, do you think the power should be changed to create a bigger difference between missing and hitting?

 

[Caliber]

Huh, now that is interesting. A fellow player in my game has that spell and uses it regularly; in his case his power card (and the Character Build, as I just double checked!) has the area created daze enemies in it until the end of their turn. The Compendium, however, lists otherwise. I checked the mag in question and you (and the Compendium) have the right of it here. The only real difference on a miss is that the enemy isn't dazed until his turn starts, and can maybe be forced moved out by a friendly ally.

I'm not sure if the hit/miss being so similar is really a problem, but without having the time to compare, this simply seeming to be an outstandingly powerful ability does seem a wee bit broke.

 

[Obryn]

Grasp of the Grave is an insane spell. I saw it in action this past weekend, and it's probably better than any other spell of a nearby level. I am leaning towards calling it broken.

It's basically an auto-daze in a big until-end-of-encounter 5x5 zone that only affects enemies.

-O

 

[spinmd]

Yeah, and the wizard who wants to take it in my campaign has the enlarge spell feat so it becomes a 7X7 auto-daze zone that only affects enemies.

Methinks, I need to have a convo with my player...

 

[Obryn]

Yeah, and the wizard who wants to take it in my campaign has the enlarge spell feat so it becomes a 7X7 auto-daze zone that only affects enemies.

Methinks, I need to have a convo with my player...

whimper

That's ... Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that.

-O

 

[Falling Icicle]

It's not as bad as it looks. Even on a hit, it does less damage than Fireball on a miss. And even if the creature is dazed, they can simply leave the affected area. So all the character accomplished is doing a bit of damage and taking away actions for a turn. Only in situations where you can effectively force the creatures to remain in the area does it become very powerful. But then, this is a feature of all zones and encourages strategy.

 

[keterys]

You'll find that "simply leave the area" can be a lot more work than you think. Especially if you have a fighter, but even without one between prone, immobilize, and pull/slide...

Without a fighter the solo we fought spent 2 rounds of a combat not dazed.

With a fighter I'm not sure he'd have spent any since he couldn't have just flown out of the area.

If he hadn't had flying, I'm not sure he'd have succeeded in leaving at all even without a fighter.

 

[MrBeens]

It's insanely overpowered compared to any other spell of it's level (or even higher)

 

[FunkBGR]

Grasp of the Grave is indeed powerful.

I allowed it in my game, but have yet to see it come into play. If you look at its closest spell of equality (WEB), it's betters, hands down. Then, look at Keterys' comparison of dailies. Web was ranked easily one of the worst at a C or C+ or something, while dailies such as Stinking Cloud were A or A+.

This spell is easily A or A+, and is basically Web on crack. Honestly, I just took it to mean stealth errata for Web.

Some ideas for re-balancing it. I only think it really needs one of these:
Add Sustain: Move action to it instead of creating a Zone
Remove the Daze condition of the Zone
Have the spell target Creatures, not Enemies

 

[Obryn]

You'll find that "simply leave the area" can be a lot more work than you think. Especially if you have a fighter, but even without one between prone, immobilize, and pull/slide...

Not to mention Large creatures, who can be penned in with minimal effort.

Also, I think any (but not necessarily all) of FunkBGR's suggestions would help a lot.

I think this would be the best spell of its level even if it did no damage at all.

-O