Gray's 1st Question(s)

LOL. Your original post was..

"Do you know what a straw man actually means?"

What happened? You looked it up and find out you didn't?
My love for Dr. Who overrode all my other instincts, though if you would like to address the previous question, feel free to. I would love to hear how I was strawmanning. To the best of my knowledge, pointing out that someone's statement is inaccurate does not qualify unless you misconstrue their position.

Incidentally, since you know so much about the term, is accusing other people of using straw man arguments when they are not straw manning or would that be something completely different?
 
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I always took "Role playing" completely differently.

I'm not trying to fill a pre-defined slot in a team. I'm playing a role, like a character in a play. It has nothing to do with being a good fighter, cleric, wizard, monk, druid, rogue or ranger. It has to do with being a colorful and interesting character.

I think most people think this. I think most people think it's called "role" playing simply because they are acting differently. But that ignores the actual word "role." I submit that it originally started from the concept of you play a "role" and that role is determined by the class. In other words, you are playing at being a Dwarven Fighter or Elven Magic User. Your role is the role of the Fighter. You are encouraged to act, not as yourself, but as such a character might act.

Even in in the context of a play, the characters are there to fill a specific role for the author/writer. No "character" in a play is a random event nor does that character get to act however he or she sees fit. The writer puts the characer in the play for a specific purpose. That character plays a "role" which facilitates the story being told.

Essentially the fact that "role" was specifically based on choosing a class has been lost and most people just associate the "role" being some personality they invent...which isn't really what it means to play a "role" in a party.

EDIT:
Maybe that was more confusing. Let's try it like this. D&D was based on there actually being roles in a party: A fighter, a thief, a magic user. To play the game, you had to take one of those roles in the party. Ergo, roleplaying.
 
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I think most people think this. I think most people think it's called "role" playing simply because they acting differently. But that ignores the actual word "role." I submit that it originally started from the concept of you play a "role" and that role is determined by the class. In other words, you are playing at being a Dwarven Fighter or Elven Magic User. Your role is the role of the Fighter. You are encouraged to act, not as yourself, but as such a character might act.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not playing a Dwarven fighter, I'm playing Igor Thud, who happens to be a Dwarven Fighter. He's not an interchangeable part, to be replaced by just any other Dwarven fighter.

Even in in the context of a play, the characters are there to fill a specific role for the author/writer. No "character" in a play is a random event nor does that character get to act however he or she sees fit. The writer puts the characer in the play for a specific purpose. That character plays a "role" which facilitates the story being told.
In a role playing game, the players *are* the authors/writers. We take a generic plot line, a challenge laid out by the DM, and we write the dialogue, we come up with the clever bon mot, we find the solution.

If there is only one solution, only one way to get from start to finish, that's not a role-playing game, it's a railroad.
 
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I respectfully disagree. I'm not playing a Dwarven fighter, I'm playing Igor Thud, who happens to be a Dwarven Fighter. He's not an interchangeable part, to be replaced by just any other Dwarven fighter.
Actually he can be replaced by another fighter. Just as a Father Jiminez gives way to Deacon Fryer, when the the guy who plays Father Jiminez moves to Waconda.

The game works when Igor Thud chooses a role. If Igor Thud and his companions don't choose one of the classes available, there can be no game. Igor Thud can do nothing in D&D. Igor Thud the Fighter can. The original game of D&D required that peole play a role not a personality. Without a "Fighter" to fight things, the game has no meaning and can't function.

In a role playing game, the players *are* the authors/writers. We take a generic plot line, a challenge laid out by the DM, and we write the dialogue, we come up with the clever bon mot, we find the solution.
That is neither here nor there. Who the writers are, is not the crucial question. The point is that actors in a play aren't just whatever personalities the actor wants to adopt...characters in a play have a function in a story.

If there is only one solution, only one way to get from start to finish, that's not a role-playing game, it's a railroad.
I'm not sure what that has to do with why it's called roleplaying?
 

Actually he can be replaced by another fighter. Just as a Father Jiminez gives way to Deacon Fryer, when the the guy who plays Father Jiminez moves to Waconda.
And is Deacon Fryer a healing specialist, or is his personality more of a battle cleric? They are hardly interchangeable.

The game works when Igor Thud chooses a role. If Igor Thud and his companions don't choose one of the classes available, there can be no game. Igor Thud can do nothing in D&D. Igor Thud the Fighter can. The original game of D&D required that peole play a role not a personality. Without a "Fighter" to fight things, the game has no meaning and can't function.
Again, I respectfully disagree.

Will Igor's slot be filled by just any fighter? Hardly. He's more than just an axe with legs. His class may determine what general duties he performs, but it's his personality that dictates how he performs those duties.

One fighter might be the "bonzai" type that charges headlong into melee, while another is a steadfast "hold the line" type.
That is neither here nor there. Who the writers are, is not the crucial question. The point is that actors in a play aren't just whatever personalities the actor wants to adopt...characters in a play have a function in a story.
Once more I find myself disagreeing with you. If the DM is the writer, then he doesn't need players at all. The characters in a game really are just whatever personality the actor/player wants to adopt. Yes, they have a function in the story, and that function is that they are the ones writing it, collectively.

I'm not sure what that has to do with why it's called roleplaying?
It has to do with the definition of "role". Is it the job, or the person doing that job?
 


And is Deacon Fryer a healing specialist, or is his personality more of a battle cleric? They are hardly interchangeable.


Again, I respectfully disagree.

Will Igor's slot be filled by just any fighter? Hardly. He's more than just an axe with legs. His class may determine what general duties he performs, but it's his personality that dictates how he performs those duties.

One fighter might be the "bonzai" type that charges headlong into melee, while another is a steadfast "hold the line" type.

Once more I find myself disagreeing with you. If the DM is the writer, then he doesn't need players at all. The characters in a game really are just whatever personality the actor/player wants to adopt. Yes, they have a function in the story, and that function is that they are the ones writing it, collectively.


It has to do with the definition of "role". Is it the job, or the person doing that job?

I'll put it to you like this. D&D can function without the players adopting alter ego's. It cannot function without the players adopting classes/roles. When Igor Thud leaves the party and they replace him with Yohann Van Gogen the human fighter.....and the game continues. The D&D universe does not collapse because some personality is absent.

What I do think is true is that when most people think of "RPG's" today...they don't envision specific roles...they envision "acting" as some character in a play. What's funny about your comparison is that when you take a "role" in a play, you are on a railroad, to use your own phrase. Actors in a play aren't given choices as to who their character is or what she is supposed to convey to the audience.

Nevertheless, a role is a function in D&D. In sports, particularly basketball, you'll hear people talk about a lack of "role players." What are they talking about? People who specifically perform a needed and necessary function and setting aside their ego/perseonality e.g. rebounder, defensive specialist, outside shooter, etc.

What you're essentially arguing is that people's personalities will interfere with their ability to perform their....role. A cleric's unique role and responsibilty is to heal the party. If the player instead chooses to play the cleric like a rogue and won't heal anyone, then he isn't playing his role is he? He's playing some other role and that causes problems...most likely the party will die.

Early modules for D&D were not made considering personalities...they were made considering the roles people would play in a campaign: fighter, cleric, theif. Remember, early D&D was very rigid in what roles you could play.

Again, I think you're confusing "role" as in a play with role as in a function. Think of it like this...early D&D books gave you instructions on how the roles were suppose to function. They didn't give you instructions on how to act like you were in a play. Nevertheless, I'm sure Gary Gygax would tell you D&D "roleplaying" is meant to encompess both. ;)

EDIT
It occurs to me that we may both be slightly off the mark. The term roleplaying may be used because you play a "character" who is part of a story. So it's not really about the role/function you play nor is it that you are supposed to be "acting."
 
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