Great City Campaign Setting...not 4e...sucks

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sucessfully launching DDI with the features they've been touting for the past year would be a compelling reason for me to consider a switch to 4E. It wouldn't mean I'd switch, but there would be a compelling reason to consider it.



As I've said before, D&D has forked. One fork will be predominant, but I see both forks surviving. The only question will be which fork will be the predominant? Best guess is 4E because of brand recognition, but don't sell the open gaming fork short. There's a lot of potential there and even though 4E may be predominant for several years, the OGL fork will always be there and could even outlast WotC in the long run.

Be careful with forks, my friend. Very careful:
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[carmachu]

So, why did Paizo decide to go OGL *BEFORE* the GSL was released?

Did you pay any attention during the GSL fiasco? And I dont mean to be condecending, but its obvious.


The short answer is: Gencon. The long answer is a bit more complicated. Piazo isnt a small company, Its probably never going to be a Large one either. SO split it down the middle and call it a mid-sized one, one of the bigger 3rd party companies.

Wotc claimed that it was going to havea $5K buy in for the SRD and gaming licesnse...what, November/December/January?(doing this from memory, so bear with me.) Then it pushed th Feb, Then March....Paizo couldnt sit on their hands and wait for Wotc to crap or get off the pot with the GSL/OGL which was delayed and delayed.... They coouldnt sit on their hands with teh Pathfinder, nor other items.

So in light of the delays they ran OGL. Which in hindsight of looking at the GSL makes them look like geniuses. They needed to have things in the pipeline, and with GenCon pretty much the A-list convention of the year, the delays Wotc was having with the GSL....they really had no choice.


Ultimately, Wotc's delay and the deal-breaker of a GSL created the situation.

 

[carmachu]

I think what you are trying to say is that the GSL is preventing 3pp from moving to 4e DESPITE the larger market size. Because it would be crazy to think that they don't want to try and tap that larger market. Heck, try to tap both if you can.

Right. You get my point despite my bumbling. The GSL is holding 3rd parties back, despite the obvious larger 4e market.

Cant tap both, not really, the GSL took care of that.

As for not wanting to convert Tomb of Horrors or the like, I can understand the apprehension. Then again Tomb of Horrors is such a name brand that you could probably negotiate a seperate contract with WOTC so that you don't loose the option to go back at some point at time. But if you don't, then what do you do with it? I guess you could continue to sell it as 3.5, but how many more copies are you going to sell? I don't think the 3.5 market is growing afterall. The future buyers already have entire walls of stuff, including probably Tomb of Horrors and the like. I guess of course that they can try to add onto it with Return to the Tomb II or something like that but the point is that eventually the market becomes saturated and people just don't need more stuff.

One could argue that reason also applies to moving to 4e. Why buy it if its going to make your entire shelf of stuff obsolete? At least making stuff for 3.x allows the option to use the plethera of stuff you have.

Further, take ToH for example. It was black and white. Privateer presss, back when it released warmachine, was also black and white. Recently, teh rereleased Prime: remix, which was full color like later supliments, polished up to condense some rules and cleaned up errata. People bought it. I know I did. Did I need to? No not really,but I'd easily buy a cleaned up full color ToH, and I know I'm not alone.

Is there a market for 3.x? Unknown. But there is a market, and it is growing as dissatisfaction grows. The market doesnt have to be a large share, remember, for third parties.

It was the players handbook that was on the best sellers list.

So what. Its barely been over a month since its release, come talk to me in a year and we'll see if the sales are still growing or shrinking.

This is true, but I wouldn't totally discount it yet. I think they now have a better understanding of what the potential is for this side of the buisness and want to take advantage of it. I think they will put much more effort into it this time around then they have in the past.

Unsupported asserssion that they understand better now.

They knew there would be a market, hence canceling dungeon and dragon magazines and moving online. The problem is their past performaces via online and such has not been well done.

Time will tell.

 

[Desdichado]

Privateer is different though. I don't even play Warmachine, but I buy the books for the artwork alone.

 

[carmachu]

Privateer is different though. I don't even play Warmachine, but I buy the books for the artwork alone.

How is it different? Prime is like Tomb of horrors, and he asked what can you do to make it marketable back to 3.x.....and the answer is much like Prime: remix. A bit of color would be great. Clean up and updated as well.

No its not that different at all.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

Cant tap both, not really, the GSL took care of that.

Not really. You can have one product line of new stuff be GSL and your old signature stuff can remain OGL.

One could argue that reason also applies to moving to 4e. Why buy it if its going to make your entire shelf of stuff obsolete? At least making stuff for 3.x allows the option to use the plethera of stuff you have.

Why move from 1e to 2e, 2e to 3e, 3e to 3.5? Because its bigger, stronger, faster, new and fun. Basically because its different. I know for me the bloom is off the rose regarding 3e mechanics. I don't mind something new.

Further, take ToH for example. It was black and white. Privateer presss, back when it released warmachine, was also black and white. Recently, teh rereleased Prime: remix, which was full color like later supliments, polished up to condense some rules and cleaned up errata. People bought it. I know I did. Did I need to? No not really,but I'd easily buy a cleaned up full color ToH, and I know I'm not alone.

Not exactly fun at the game table.

Is there a market for 3.x? Unknown. But there is a market, and it is growing as dissatisfaction grows. The market doesnt have to be a large share, remember, for third parties.

see...

So what. Its barely been over a month since its release, come talk to me in a year and we'll see if the sales are still growing or shrinking.

Unsupported asserssion that they understand better now.

In a thread brimming with unsupported asserssions that is hardly the worst of them. In fact, I think just the presentation of what they want to do tells me they have a better understanding of the potential.

 

[carmachu]

Not really. You can have one product line of new stuff be GSL and your old signature stuff can remain OGL.

But then it becomes is it worth the bother. And at the moment.....apparantly no its not.

I see three folks moving folward at any pace: Godman games-which is unsuprising, Kenzer and Whoever is doing a new EARTHDAWN game.

Everyone else, it seems, doesnt see the worth of it, yet. If there is one.

Why move from 1e to 2e, 2e to 3e, 3e to 3.5? Because its bigger, stronger, faster, new and fun. Basically because its different. I know for me the bloom is off the rose regarding 3e mechanics. I don't mind something new.

But what did all those have in common, that 4e does not? Its not that each is different or an improvement(one could quibble that 2nd ed was not, really an improvement), each was, for the most part a continuality.

4e is radically different. Better? Subjective.

Not exactly fun at the game table.

Says you. Its not for the game table. Its for the DM, just like the original.

In a thread brimming with unsupported asserssions that is hardly the worst of them. In fact, I think just the presentation of what they want to do tells me they have a better understanding of the potential.

They had that presentation over a year ago, and married the new system to it. So far, its undelivered and not looking very good.

Having an idea is one thing, and they have that. The follow through, however, has been abyssmal. We'll see which one is right.

 

[catsclaw227]

I see three folks moving folward at any pace: Godman games-which is unsuprising, Kenzer and Whoever is doing a new EARTHDAWN game.

Everyone else, it seems, doesnt see the worth of it, yet. If there is one.

It's my understanding that Adamant Entertainment will have an adventure up real soon. Also Necromancer has already said that they are doing 4e stuff, we just don't have any release dates yet.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's my understanding that Adamant Entertainment will have an adventure up real soon. Also Necromancer has already said that they are doing 4e stuff, we just don't have any release dates yet.

They previously said they wanted them available as soon as they were allowed to sell them, which would suggest an October shelf date for Advanced Players Guide and the Folio of Fiends. I can't wait, myself.

 

[thundershot]

Folio of Fiends? Did they come up with a new name for the Tome of Horrors, since they can't use "Tome of Horrors" and still sell their 3E ones?



Chris