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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8099736" data-attributes="member: 16814">This still isn't meaningfully different from hidden -- a creature can be hidden but you might know something is nearby.&nbsp; [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER]'s example of the distant yelling orc is such (sorry, I didn't get to that one and recall it here).&nbsp; In game terms, that orc is hidden -- you can't see it, you can locate it by hearing or noticing it's passage, and you don't know where it is.&nbsp; The distant yelling lets you know something is going on, but you can't do much with it.&nbsp; Same with anything hidden -- the presence of a tell that says something is off but that doesn't reveal the location of the creature is still inside the hiding rules.&nbsp; What you're proposing is a second, identical set of rules to hidden, but not called hidden, so that the ranger ability can work.&nbsp; There's no functional difference other than one class' 18th level ability.&nbsp; That doesn't strike you as extremely odd design to not ever be mentioned anywhere else?Again, you can easily rule that invisible creatures are automatically hidden -- you need no special rules or strange side-along duplicate rules for this.&nbsp; And, it would work just fine.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8099736, member: 16814"] This still isn't meaningfully different from hidden -- a creature can be hidden but you might know something is nearby. [USER=6801845]@Oofta[/USER]'s example of the distant yelling orc is such (sorry, I didn't get to that one and recall it here). In game terms, that orc is hidden -- you can't see it, you can locate it by hearing or noticing it's passage, and you don't know where it is. The distant yelling lets you know something is going on, but you can't do much with it. Same with anything hidden -- the presence of a tell that says something is off but that doesn't reveal the location of the creature is still inside the hiding rules. What you're proposing is a second, identical set of rules to hidden, but not called hidden, so that the ranger ability can work. There's no functional difference other than one class' 18th level ability. That doesn't strike you as extremely odd design to not ever be mentioned anywhere else? Again, you can easily rule that invisible creatures are automatically hidden -- you need no special rules or strange side-along duplicate rules for this. And, it would work just fine. [/QUOTE]

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