D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Stalker0]

So when I read the technical rules on hiding and stealth (in the scattered mess that they are) plus a lot of previous commentary on the subject, both on these boards and others....this is the general "by the book" definition of stealth as I understand it.

1) Greater Invis gives you total concealment, allowing for the option of stealth checks.
2) You must now make an action to become hidden...rolling a stealth check against passive perceptions.
3) Assuming you succeed, you are hidden, and you can walk around, and do certain things without having to reroll stealth.
4) Once you perform an action, stealth is lost, and enemies know what square you are in.
5) Unless you take a new action to hide (rolling a new stealth check), the enemies will automatically know what square your in.

Ok, that's pretty clear.

However, I have a situation where I have a monk that was given improved invisibility. The monk has 50 speed... and so using step of the wind he can make attacks and then move a full 100 speed away from the spot where he was "detected". I completely understand the being detected when he attacked, makes total sense.... but its quite weird in flavor that you can now track this guy who is still invisible over 100 feet away (and could even be behind other cover or barriers even) and not have to make a perception roll to still know where he is.

So I was curious how others do it. On the one hand, it suspends my disbelief a lot to run this by the book....but on the other I can see how powerful it would be to let it go without having to "restealth".

 

[Flamestrike]

So when I read the technical rules on hiding and stealth (in the scattered mess that they are) plus a lot of previous commentary on the subject, both on these boards and others....this is the general "by the book" definition of stealth as I understand it.

1) Greater Invis gives you total concealment, allowing for the option of stealth checks.
2) You must now make an action to become hidden...rolling a stealth check against passive perceptions.
3) Assuming you succeed, you are hidden, and you can walk around, and do certain things without having to reroll stealth.
4) Once you perform an action, stealth is lost, and enemies know what square you are in.
5) Unless you take a new action to hide (rolling a new stealth check), the enemies will automatically know what square your in.

Ok, that's pretty clear.

However, I have a situation where I have a monk that was given improved invisibility. The monk has 50 speed... and so using step of the wind he can make attacks and then move a full 100 speed away from the spot where he was "detected". I completely understand the being detected when he attacked, makes total sense.... but its quite weird in flavor that you can now track this guy who is still invisible over 100 feet away (and could even be behind other cover or barriers even) and not have to make a perception roll to still know where he is.

So I was curious how others do it. On the one hand, it suspends my disbelief a lot to run this by the book....but on the other I can see how powerful it would be to let it go without having to "restealth".

You've gotta remember its all happening at the same time, and 'what' the Stealth check to Hide represents (moving slowly and silently, taking care to conceal other signs of your approach like footprints, moving grass etc)

The [hidden + invisible Monk] reveals himself once he makes an attack, and then his opponent hears him run away.

His opponent now has a very rough idea where the Monk is (roughly 100' away in 'that' direction).

The Monk can simply Hide again (via the action) on his next turn, and his opponent will then lose track of him. If he chooses not to Hide, he's taking some other action (Attack, Cast a Spell etc) and not making any attempt to be quiet, conceal his location etc.

It's up to the Monk.

 

[Staffan]

The basic state of invisibility is that your foes can tell roughly where you are (which square), but you have total concealment so they attack with disadvantage and you attack with advantage. The easiest way to think of it is like a "predator" effect, though you can also think of it as the sound of breathing, footsteps, tracks, and so on making it obvious.

If you take an action to hide, you are hidden until your next turn. Then people no longer know where you are. But hiding takes an action, so barring bonus action shenanigans you won't be able to do anything other than moving without announcing your presence. If you attack, you're using your action to attack and thus not to hide, so your presence is known and people can follow you.

Note that this is a significant nerf from how invisibility worked in 3e, where your foes had to actively look for you and succeed at difficult Listen/Perception rolls to locate you. In 3e, invisibility made you undetected, and it was up to your opponents to find you. In 5e, invisibility gives you an edge, but you still have to actively keep hidden. The main advantage there is that you're not limited by the availability of cover (plus, of course, the direct combat advantage of advantage on attacks and disadvantage on defense).

 

[Shiroiken]

I use invisibility with a little bit more common sense than RAW. If there's a reason the target isn't easily tracked, such as major distractions like combat, unless you're within 10-15 ft, rather than knowing the exact square you only have a general idea (usually about 4-9 squares). In this particular case I'd work it the same, since 100 ft is quite a bit of distance to narrow it down to a 5 ft area.

 

[Oofta]

I think of making a stealth check as an action "tax". You are moving carefully, trying to not make noise or otherwise attract attention. In addition, the way I run stealth it's not necessarily an either-or. Some enemies may or may not know where the monk is at the end of their turn, they may know vaguely where the monk is, they may know their basic location. There are simply too many factors in play. For that matter, being invisible may not be enough to stay undetected under certain circumstances (walking through water for example could give away your position).

From a rules perspective, once the monk attacks they are no longer hidden. Most monsters won't be able to see them but they will hear them running away. Where do they run to? Can they run around a corner out of site? Is it in the middle of a pitched battle with noise and chaos or in a sandy desert where they will leave footprints?

Stealth and hiding is left vague because there are too many possibilities. Sometimes the DM just has to make a judgment call. I personally prefer this, I just try to be fair and consistent. It's also a topic I discuss outside of game time with my players so we can set expectations because many DMs will have different criteria than I do. I think that's fine as long as the DM is consistent and the players understand why and how they make their rulings.

 

[iserith]

So when I read the technical rules on hiding and stealth (in the scattered mess that they are) plus a lot of previous commentary on the subject, both on these boards and others....this is the general "by the book" definition of stealth as I understand it.

1) Greater Invis gives you total concealment, allowing for the option of stealth checks.
2) You must now make an action to become hidden...rolling a stealth check against passive perceptions.
3) Assuming you succeed, you are hidden, and you can walk around, and do certain things without having to reroll stealth.
4) Once you perform an action, stealth is lost, and enemies know what square you are in.
5) Unless you take a new action to hide (rolling a new stealth check), the enemies will automatically know what square your in.

Ok, that's pretty clear.

However, I have a situation where I have a monk that was given improved invisibility. The monk has 50 speed... and so using step of the wind he can make attacks and then move a full 100 speed away from the spot where he was "detected". I completely understand the being detected when he attacked, makes total sense.... but its quite weird in flavor that you can now track this guy who is still invisible over 100 feet away (and could even be behind other cover or barriers even) and not have to make a perception roll to still know where he is.

So I was curious how others do it. On the one hand, it suspends my disbelief a lot to run this by the book....but on the other I can see how powerful it would be to let it go without having to "restealth".

I rule that the monk is not hidden until the monk takes and succeeds on the Hide action. If the monk doesn't want to do that, it's okay because the monk is still benefiting from being invisible and enemies have disadvantage to attack rolls against the monk.

 

[Umbran]

but its quite weird in flavor that you can now track this guy who is still invisible over 100 feet away (and could even be behind other cover or barriers even) and not have to make a perception roll to still know where he is.

To step away from rules for just a second - the entire round of everyone acting is about 6 seconds. So, this character is running a hundred feet in a second or two. This is Usain Bolt speed or better (he's done 120 feet in 4.22 seconds).

You really expect someone's sprinting that fast quietly? Or are their feet slamming the ground, their lungs pumping for air.... This person may be moving fast enough to go fwooosssh as they move through the air!

So, yeah, maybe keeping track of where they are isn't that hard.

 

[Ancalagon]

To step away from rules for just a second - the entire round of everyone acting is about 6 seconds. So, this character is running a hundred feet in a second or two. This is Usain Bolt speed or better (he's done 120 feet in 4.22 seconds).

You really expect someone's sprinting that fast quietly? Or are their feet slamming the ground, their lungs pumping for air.... This person may be moving fast enough to go fwooosssh as they move through the air!

So, yeah, maybe keeping track of where they are isn't that hard.

I completely concur - you're probably knocking things over, spooking the goblin onlookers etc...

Now if they move behind cover, the knowledge of where they are diminishes (you can't see the transparent blurry form anymore) but an action to hide is well, necessary to hide. If you are behind cover in fact, you wouldn't even need invisibility to hide!

 

[DEFCON 1]

Let's also not forget that be Hidden grants you as a character only TWO total things...

1) The attacker has to guess the space you are in.
2) You get to make your next attack with Advantage.

That's it. That's all being Hidden gives you. All the stuff that comes with Invisibility still applies whether or not you are Hidden (all attacks against you have Disadvantage, you cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks, etc.) So the Monk not making Dexterity (Stealth) checks to become Hidden isn't losing him much.

So if we look at this particular Monk situation... how often are you the DM ever going to bother trying to have a creature attack the Monk after he has run 100 feet away... regardless of whether or not the attacker knows which space he is in? Especially when that attack is going to be with Disadvantage? Aren't you really instead going to just have the attacker on its turn move to another member of the Monk's party and attack them instead? Why would that creature try to go chasing after the Monk, even if they knew what space he was in? There's no point. Leave the Monk be and go after the easier target. That's pretty much the normal course of action for any creature on the battlefield... find the nearest enemy and attack them.

Your Monk gets to run up to people, whack them, and then run away without getting attacked in return. Okay. So what? Isn't that pretty much exactly what all ranged characters get to do all the time? Attack creatures far away with no return attack? So the Monk getting to do it as well (just replacing melee attacks with ranged attacks) doesn't seem that far out of line. Let the Monk have his fun in my opinion.

 

[aco175]

There must be some sort of distance rules for this. I would think that an invisible PC that moves 100 feet away is harder to detect than than someone that moved 15ft or 30ft. I get the part with detecting clues that someone is invisible near you and getting the basic direction of moving 'that way'. In a normal environment, or a combat, the sights or noise will drown out at some point.

I can see eyes of the eagle negating the disadvantage to perceive the invisible person at a distance.