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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8099792" data-attributes="member: 16814">Okay, let me try to break this down another way -- 1. Without invisibility, it's clear that you will know the location of another creature because you can see it.  There may be some edge cases, but, other than the hidden quality, this is the case.  The default is that you can locate a creature.2. Invisibility, therefore, needs to say how it adjusts the non-invisible case.  It does not introduce a new baseline case, it modifies what's already there.a.  Invisibility first changes that you cannot see an invisible creature.  b. Invisibility says you are treated as heavily obscured for purposes of hiding. The hiding rules further expand this to say that you may always attempt to hide if you are invisible.c.  Invisibility says that you can (note, not may) still be detected by the sounds your make or signs of your passage.Okay, so, then we have our normal baseline (1) where everything gets located.  Then we have the changes to that baseline made by invisibility as (2).  Invisibility specifically says that you can be located by the sounds you make or signs of your passage.  That's a pretty clear statement that you are located unless you remove those things, which can be done by hiding.  And, invisibility means you can always hide, so that's good!There is nothing to say that you automatically detect creatures because that's the obvious baseline when dealing with non-invisible creatures.  If it were not, then there would be rules for detecting non-hidden but unlocated combatants because D&D is a game that devotes a lot of space to being able to hit things, so knowing where things are is hugely important.  So, baseline, clear assumption without invisibility is that you locate creatures.  So, when invisibility comes in, it does what all specific rules do in 5e -- it says exactly what it does and anything it doesn't say is however you would generally do it.  The general way is that you know where things are, and invisibility specifically does not change that.  It says you're not visible, but that you can be located by sounds you make or signs of passage.  It also says that the usual way of being unlocated -- hiding -- is facilitated but not improved or assumed by invisibility.So, we have clear, understood baseline, and then normal exception based design, and nothing in invisibility alters the baseline except as specifically stated.  Anything else is bringing in extra stuff.</blockquote>

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