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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8100147" data-attributes="member: 16814">Sure, but do you do this for normal hiding?  The base condition for hiding is not being seen, so it would follow that you would also apply disadvantage to normal hiding as well.  This is the point -- invisibility specifically declines to change the normal rules, and in the exception based design that means it doesn't.  The only fair way to apply disadvantage because you can't see the hider would be to do it in pretty much all hiding situations.In general, I discount smell unless there's a special ability.  However, even invisible and silent might be detected if there's environmental conditions that warrant it.  Still, that combo is strong.And that penalty is that the other creature can attempt to hide.Cool!</blockquote>