Greatest Adventures of All Time. Where Can I Find the List? ADD: And the Debate.

[Kelek72]

Saga of the Shadowlord

This my favorite. It had a cool bad guy, cool cover, cool mission, etc...

 

[Celebrim]

Let the pointless squabbling over the rankings begin....

In fact, I'll start it.

How is Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh ranked only 27th? It's by far the best low-level module ever produced. And as a template for module (adventure) design, it is nearly flawless. It's a far better module than anything in the Top 5, with the possible exception of Ravenloft.

There are several problems with SSoS. The biggest of which is that its sequels are as disappointing as the sequels to the Matrix and they don't even play as well as they read. Big step up. Big let down. Another real problem with the module is almost everything in it forces a saving throw - the poisonous snake, the large spider, the family of centipedes, the yellow mold, the other large spiders, the rot grubs, the green slime, ect. The writers have mercifully toned down the poison, but even so there is a good chance a character will be removed from play for a lengthy period which detracts from the adventure. And the rot grubs and yellow mold are inappropriate for an introductory module. Either could easily wipe out 50% of the players in a novice party of 1st time players. And the green slime is by my experience marginal. I've seen novice players - even some supposedly not so novice players with years of experience - simply die unable to figure out what to do to handle a green slime. SSoS is its own little 'Tomb of Horrors', and while I don't have a problem with that I do think it detracts from the introductory character of the module. I think its actually a much better low level module for experienced players. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does mean that it has more competition in the category of 'best 1st module for 1st level characters' than you imply.

I also have problems with the metagaming assumptions that surround Ned. It's pretty juvenile, even for its time.

Up against SSoS I'd place 'Sunless Citadel' and 'The Whispering Cairn'.

Bah. This list is clearly based on some criteria with which I don't personally agree. Why wasn't I consulted? Why?! WHY?!!!

Don't feel bad. I wasn't consulted either, and I'm so obviously better qualified than you. But any list that didn't get either of our opinions is clearly not even worth considering.

Why, milestone modules like 'Beyond the Crystal Cave' don't even make it into the list, whereas amatuerish trash like 'Expedition to the Barrier Peaks', 'Queen of the Spiders', 'The Keep on the Borderlands' does. Imagine them putting modules on the best of list just because millions of players enjoyed them and I didn't (except for B2, and in my defence I was really young at the time and didn't know better)!!! The nerve of that!

 

[Hussar]

What? No love of Gargoyles? Or Puppets??? Man, this list was rigged.

 

[thedungeondelver]

@ celebrim & hussar
I'm zapping you two...with my ZAP RAY! *pweeo! pweeo!*

 

[Joshua Randall]

There are several problems with SSoS. The biggest of which is that its sequels are as disappointing as the sequels to the Matrix

That's not a problem with Sinister Secret; that's a problem with the sequels.

Another real problem with the module is almost everything in it forces a saving throw [...] the rot grubs and yellow mold are inappropriate for an introductory module. [...] And the green slime is by my experience marginal. [...]

I think its actually a much better low level module for experienced players. [...] it has more competition in the category of 'best 1st module for 1st level characters' than you imply.

To respond to your last point first, I never said it was the best first module for players. I said it was the best low level module.

Saves, rot grubs, yellow mold, green slime, and other hazards were/are part of the game. Players have to learn how to deal with them. Will they sometimes learn the hard way; i.e., by losing characters? Sure. But that's no different than learning that hard way that monsters with reach are harder to fight than goblins and orcs (to use a 3.x example).

I also have problems with the metagaming assumptions that surround Ned.

I'm cribbing from Rel in this thread, but Ned teaches an important lesson too: don't trust everyone you meet. However, the really brilliant thing about Sinister Secret is how Oceanus (the captive aquatic elf on the Sea Ghost) teaches that opposite lesson: you should trust some people.

The players learn to use their judgment and intuition to decide who's trustworthy and who's not. (In 3.x they would learn to use opposed Sense Motive rolls.)

Even if you don't like the green slime, Ned, or whatever, Sinister Secret is a great example of adventure story structure. It sets the hook with the haunted house. Then the players peel back the curtain and discover the smugglers. Then they must decipher the coded signal system to lure the Sea Ghost. Then they must plan a tactical assault upon a numerically superior band of pirates. Then they discover the lizard men and the cache of weapons, which points to a (seemingly) much worse conspiracy than just a bunch of ruffians smuggling bolts of cloth.

And it does all this in what, 32 pages? Some modern adventure writers, with their bloated introductions and long-winded exposition, could learn a thing or two about conciseness from Sinister Secret.

Ah well. I'm not being concise, so I'll stop.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

U1 belongs on the list. C2, Ghost Tower of Inverness, is the weird entry on it, even in the bottom slot.

 

[Celebrim]

That's not a problem with Sinister Secret; that's a problem with the sequels.

Well granted, but part of what makes U1 so good is that it sets up the players for a continuing epic storyline. If it wasn't for the secrets uncovered, the module wouldn't be as satisfying. The story line which is revealed however doesn't deliver in the same fashion that 'Lost' just doesn't deliver (IMO).

To respond to your last point first, I never said it was the best first module for players. I said it was the best low level module.

I know what you said. But if the module has serious problems as an introductory module, then it has a problem. The ideal first level adventure would be both highly enjoyable for experienced players and novices alike. For example, I think 'Whispering Cairn' is at least as good for experienced players, has just as varied of challenges, and while its a very difficult module with few exceptions its not going to kill novices off in as arbitrary of fashion as the repeated 'save or die' situations in SSoS.

Saves, rot grubs, yellow mold, green slime, and other hazards were/are part of the game. Players have to learn how to deal with them. Will they sometimes learn the hard way; i.e., by losing characters?

I agree wholeheartedly. I sprung green slime, yellow mold, rot grubs and other dungeoneering hazards on a group of experienced 3rd edition players with 5 or so years of experience and wiped out half of a group of 4th level characters because they literally had no idea what to do. And its not like I made much of an effort to hide the yellow mold, and I even had the green slime one room away from one with a sky light in it so all you needed to do was drag the slimed character back into the previous room and you'd be good. I even had a smoldering fire in the same room so that they didn't need flint and tender, torches and what not. But they basically looked at me with horrified looks on thier face, "Like what is this strange cthullan green slime that is eating my character? If I can't swing a sword at it I'm helpless!!!"

I'm cribbing from Rel in this thread, but Ned teaches an important lesson too: don't trust everyone you meet. However, the really brilliant thing about Sinister Secret is how Oceanus (the captive aquatic elf on the Sea Ghost) teaches that opposite lesson: you should trust some people.

Which is all fine and good. But that's not metagaming and it isn't what I was complaining about. What I'm complaining about is that Ned according to the text introduces himself to the party as a 2nd level thief. "Hello, I'm Ned Strangelock, a 2nd level thief." Or only slightly better, "Hi, I'm Ned, a footpad. Do you have any work for thieves around here?" And the text goes on to suggest that the best way to uncover his disguise is to question him in thieves cant, which being an assassin he won't know. Now that is metagaming. The only thing that could make it worse would be, "Heh there, I'm Ned, a 2nd level chaotic good thief with 9 hit points. What's that, no I don't speak either thieves cant or the chaotic good alignment tongue. Maybe I forgot them after my head trauma that I'm showing no real sign of. Gee, I guess you just saw through my brilliant disguise."

Even if you don't like the green slime, Ned, or whatever, Sinister Secret is a great example of adventure story structure. It sets the hook with the haunted house. Then the players peel back the curtain and discover the smugglers. Then they must decipher the coded signal system to lure the Sea Ghost. Then they must plan a tactical assault upon a numerically superior band of pirates. Then they discover the lizard men and the cache of weapons, which points to a (seemingly) much worse conspiracy than just a bunch of ruffians smuggling bolts of cloth.

Which is precisely why the problems with U2 and U3 are so relevant to evaluating the strength of U1.

And it does all this in what, 32 pages? Some modern adventure writers, with their bloated introductions and long-winded exposition, could learn a thing or two about conciseness from Sinister Secret.

I agree with that. I'm continually amazed by how much story and how much adventure is packed into a 1st edition module.

 

[Desdichado]

Which is all fine and good. But that's not metagaming and it isn't what I was complaining about. What I'm complaining about is that Ned according to the text introduces himself to the party as a 2nd level thief. "Hello, I'm Ned Strangelock, a 2nd level thief." Or only slightly better, "Hi, I'm Ned, a footpad. Do you have any work for thieves around here?" And the text goes on to suggest that the best way to uncover his disguise is to question him in thieves cant, which being an assassin he won't know. Now that is metagaming. The only thing that could make it worse would be, "Heh there, I'm Ned, a 2nd level chaotic good thief with 9 hit points. What's that, no I don't speak either thieves cant or the chaotic good alignment tongue. Maybe I forgot them after my head trauma that I'm showing no real sign of. Gee, I guess you just saw through my brilliant disguise."

So, one line of dialogue--that you can easily modify as needed--condemns the whole module? That seems a bit harsh. Personally, I never read dialogue or description boxes word for word anyway--I wouldn't even have noticed that in play.

 

[Celebrim]

So, one line of dialogue--that you can easily modify as needed--condemns the whole module? That seems a bit harsh.

So the last bit of criticism I had against the module after a long litany is me condemning a whole module baded on one line of dialogue?

That was the last and least of my complaints, and far from being the whole sum of them. It's important only insomuch as it shows that although U1 is a significant advance in story plot from earlier modules, in many ways its still a very primitive module. The other complaints I made are more significant, which is why I listed them first and spent more time on them.

Let me get this straight in case there is anyone else that can't pick up on this sublty. I think U1 is a great module. It's one of the first prepared modules I encountered as a young player, it was run well by the DM, and it inspired my story telling for a long time. It's a far better module than B2 in just about everyway (the first published module I DMed), and I became a better DM the more I began to realize that and why. It definately deserves to be listed among the 30 best and most important modules of all time. But the question at hand is not whether it is merely a good module, but whether or not it is in fact the best low level module ever written and all I'm suggesting is that it has too many flaws for that claim to go unchallenged. And I say that while agreeing with Joshua that its probably a better written module than anything in the top 5 with the exception of Ravenloft.