Greatest American? (All Over on Page Eight)

[Storm Raven]

yet slavery still exists. and did thru the 19th and 20th century too

But not in any nation that we would consider to be any kind of moral example. And that is the comparison to be made. The fact that the Ottoman Empire still condoned slavery in 1860 is irrelevant. Western society had rejected the morality of slavery decades before, and every Westernized nation save the U.S. had abolished it before then.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Or, from another point of view, the Union, having most of the advantages that could be expected in a conflict between the two sides, gave the Confederates enough rope to hang themselves. And they cheerfully obliged by giving the Union the very pretext it wanted to take off the gloves.
Cagey guy that Lincoln.

Interesting point of view... Of course its not even close to be right but it is interesting.

 

[billd91]

Lincoln did not want war. He knew the cost and he was right. He did everything he could to prevent it.

I think I'd be inclined to say he did everything he could to avoid starting it, not preventing it completely. Once seccession was under way, it's hard to argue that war was not inevitable. Too many chances at compromise had been squandered on the way. Or, perhaps all of the previous compromises brokered by guys like Henry Clay, had finally delayed the impending conflict as long as they could.

 

[diaglo]

If that were so, why did Major Anderson offer to surrender the Fort peacefully if given a few days to do so?

he only needed a few days for Lincoln to send his troops.

stalling is a legit tactic of war.

 

[billd91]

Interesting point of view... Of course its not even close to be right but it is interesting.

Prove it wrong.

 

[Elf Witch]

Virtually every other Western society had abolished slavery by 1860. The Southern states were so far out of step with the moral attitudes of what was considered to be the "civilized" world of the time that it stretches credulity to argue that there is some sort of pass for morality of their practice based upon the mores of the era.

Do you have some understanding of what was entailed in just freeing the slaves? The south's economy was based on slavery. It was not something that could just change overnight with out destroying the south.

I believe in time that it would have happened. Social pressure, the coming of more labor saving devices. Machines are cheaper than humans to maintain.

Instead the south was backed against a wall and we know what the outcome of that was. The southern economy was destroyed for years it did not start to recover until the middle of the 1900s. Blacks certainly did not have an easy time of it a lot of them ended up as sharecroppers with no more protections than they had as slaves. Look how many blacks were lynched and most of the people doing it got away with it.

Lincoln and the north may have freed the slaves but they did nothing to make sure the freeded slaves would be okay.

 

[Storm Raven]

Every nation is allowed to have a standing army, with a few exceptions that gave away this right in peace treaties, its one of the things that define a sovereign state so I see no issue with this.

Signed up in droves to fight a war they provoked, for which the only realistic basis was the preservation of slavery. I' m not having a lot of sympathy for them.

Indeed they did but as you have pointed out it was state legislatures and not everyone in the state. Though things have changed since then money was still power, the money still had the slaves, and I'm willing to bet that more than a majority of representatives in the state legislatures had money.

And were also the elected representatives of the populace. Those who did not want to support slavery had options. They could do what the counties of Virginia that became West Virginia did. They could have fought for the North, as some did. They could have opposed the war. They didn't.

So I still believe that the typical confederate soldier was defending their homeland and not slavery.

The only reasonable basis for sucession was the preservation of slavery. The spark that triggered it was the election of a Republican (and supposedly, at the time abolitionist) President. Signing up to fight for that regime is defending slavery, no matter how pretty a package you want to put it into.

 

[diaglo]

But not in any nation that we would consider to be any kind of moral example.

but we still trade with them.

and the UN still recognizes them

 

[Storm Raven]

but we still trade with them.

Yes, but we should not.

and the UN still recognizes them

Yes, and it should not.

 

[Storm Raven]

he only needed a few days for Lincoln to send his troops.

Except that Lincoln wasn't going to send him troops. He considered it to be too provocative an act.