Greatsword weilding caster

Storm Raven said:
So, you are basically ignoring the rules as written in order to preserve "simultaneity", which is an invention of your own.
The irony is that this "simultaneity" is only being used to shaft spellcasters who weild 2H weapons. There's a whole cascade of effects that progresss from this fundamental misunderstanding of the rules that are not being applied by its proponents; it's just a DM hosing specific PCs. It's giving me 1e flashbacks.
 

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buzz said:
This is exactly the kind of "real-world logic" that's been bogging down the discussion, i.e., trying to establish a state ("ready" or "properly weidled") between "drawn" and "not drawn". The specific FAQ case notwithstanding, there is no such state, RAW. Nothing in the rules supprts the idea that a PC forfeits their ability to threaten just because one of their hands leaves their 2H weapon at some point on their turn in initiative. This is a level of specificity that's far, far beyond the level of abstraction in D&D. Heck, it's probably beyond the level of abstraction in Phoenix Command.

How about from Rules of the Game (also previously quoted):

The Free Action and Its Relatives

As noted in Part One, a free action is something you do during your turn that takes hardly any time at all. Many people believe that a free action never provokes an attack of opportunity, but that is not a feature of free actions. It is true, however, that free actions rarely provoke attacks of opportunity. For example, none of the free actions noted on page 144 of the Player's Handbook provokes attacks of opportunity.

You usually can perform a free action before, after, or during another action, circumstances permitting. For example, dropping an item is a free action. If you also move during your turn, you could drop an item at any point during the move. On the other hand, speaking a few words also is a free action. If you move, you could speak at any point during your move, but you could not speak while simultaneously casting a spell with a verbal component. If you tried to do so, you'd interrupt your own spell. You could, however, speak a few words before or after casting the spell. Likewise, you can cast only one spell at a time. You can't cast a quickened spell while casting another spell. When in doubt about when a free action can occur, the player and DM should discuss the matter.

You cannot use a free action during another creature's turn. Speaking is an exception; you can speak during another creature's turn (see page 144 in the Player's Handbook). Remember, however, that you're limited to just a few sentences. If you know where an invisible creature lurks, you can't tell a colleague where the creature is the moment your colleague acts (you could ready such an action, however -- see Part Four -- and you'd really be using a variant of the Aid Another action).

It's Like a Free Action but It Isn't

The Expanded Psionics Handbook introduced two new kinds of actions that are very similar to free actions. Like free actions, these actions take little or no time. Unlike free actions, there are strict limits on how many of these actions you can use in a single turn and when you can use them. Here's an overview:

Swift Actions: You can perform one (and only one) swift action during your turn. A swift action is otherwise just like a free action.

Immediate Actions: You can use an immediate action any time, even during another creature's turn. If you use an immediate action during your turn, you cannot use a swift action during your next turn. You cannot use another swift or immediate action until after your next turn

Drawing or Sheathing a Weapon: Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, usually is a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, drawing (but not sheathing) a weapon is a nonaction that you can take along with a regular move (that is, a move action that you use to move up to your speed across the battlefield). If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two weapons (either light or one-handed weapons) either as a move action or as a nonaction along with a regular move.

The draw a weapon action (and nonaction) also applies to weaponlike objects carried in easy reach. The rules don't give much guidance about which objects are "weaponlike," other than to use a wand as an example. As a practical matter, I suggest treating any object that is no bigger than a weapon for the character as weaponlike for this purpose. To be retrieved as a weapon, the weaponlike object also has to be stored in some convenient place, such as a sheath or loop in a belt or on some kind of harness or bandoleer.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

The Quick Draw feat allows you to draw (but not sheathe) a weapon as a free action during your turn. If you also have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two weapons as a free action during your turn. Though the rules don't say so, it is reasonable to assume that you also can use Quick Draw to draw weaponlike objects.

Readying or Loosing a Shield: Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your Armor Class is a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The rules don't specifically say so, but to ready a shield as a move action you must carry it on your person (perhaps strapped to your back). If you pick up a shield off the ground, that takes a separate move action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose requires a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity (to unstrap it) and a free action (to drop it). You also can merely loose the shield and keep it on your person, usually by slinging it over your back by a strap.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or loose a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.

Manipulating an Item: Moving, lifting, storing, retrieving, or otherwise handling an item is a move action. See Table 8-2 in the Player's Handbook for variations on this action and which variations provoke attacks of opportunity


The problem arises because the core rules use the term wield frequently and also hold. The Rules of the Game and the FAQ both tend to distinguish between the two. Again the dictionary definitions I also cited much earlier also cite that there is a difference between hold and wield.

The point is that wielding (which is necessary to threaten, which is necessary to make an AoO) is different than holding. Adjusting a grip or making a proper grip are things that are alluded to in the FAQ entry.

If you still wish to see things your way that is fine we will just have to agree to disagree.
 

irdeggman said:
The point is that wielding (which is necessary to threaten, which is necessary to make an AoO) is different than holding. Adjusting a grip or making a proper grip are things that are alluded to in the FAQ entry.
I do indeed disagree with you that any of the bolded sections of the RotG* article you quoted are at all relevant to the discussion. The issue of swapping a weapon to a hand bearing a light shield seems to be the sole exception that even touches on any distinction between "holding" and "weilding", and even that says nothing about something as minor as "grip".

But, if you run your game that way, I simply hope that you make this house ruling abundantly clear to your players in advance so they know where to allocate their resources (feats, class levels, equipment, etc.), and that you apply it equally to spellcasters and non-spellcasters alike.


*Leaving aside the issue of Skip's RotG articles containing rule errors on more than one occasion.
 

From the 3.0 FAQ example posted on page 2

If Gruntharg wants to use that longspear he has been holding on his shoulder or dragging on the ground, he has to get his free hand on it. This maneuver is similar to drawing the weapon, but a little easier, since Gruntharg already has one hand on it. Therefore, it’s a free action. But Gruntharg can do this only during his own turn, and in any case, he does not threaten an area with the longspear when he’s holding it in only one hand.

The reason he doesn't threaten in the example is because he took a readied action on the opponents turn. If he threw the axe on his turn, he could have readied the Long Spear on his own turn as a free action.
 

buzz said:
No. It consumes the entirety of that PC's turn in the initiative. At the end of that full-round action, the spell is cast, and the PC can take a 5-foot step if they so choose. Once we move on to the next character in the initiative order, the caster PC isn't doing anything that prevents them from making AoO's.
A full-round action therefore consumes 6 seconds worth of time. QED. Really, you already understand this part, so what are you confused about?

buzz said:
This is no different from a fighter making a full attack. Once they are done with the full-round action of making multiple attacks, they are free to make AoO's.
Apples and Oranges. A fighter making attacks is not doing something that explicitly prevents him from making attacks.

buzz said:
There is a "rest of the round". What PC A does on his turn happens on that initiative count. Unless they are taking an action or suffering a condition that specifically prevents them from acting past their turn in the initiative order or prevents them from threatening, they are free to make AoO's.
You're just plain not understanding my point. This comment proves it.

buzz said:
There's no call for snarkiness. I've read the thread; pardon me if I missed that bit.
There's no snarkiness involved, but if you're going to get in on a thread and question someone's interpretation, make sure you know what it is.

buzz said:
So, you're going to make a sorcerer blow a feat on an ability that has almost no utility for them in order to let them use the RAW? I don't find that fair to the PC.
What about the NPC? Who said I restricted this to PC's? In any case, prove that my interpretation is not the RAW. By RAW I can choose to limit free actions. What is not RAW is that it IS a free action. I'm being generous enough in making it a free action instead of a move action like the FAQ indirectly suggests.

buzz said:
I don't see any part of the rules that supports your interpretation. If you can cite someting, please feel free.
Quick rundown if you don't care to read the thread:
1. There's NO RULE at all on what kind of action it takes to release a two-handed grip.
2. There's NO RULE at all on what kind of action it takes to regrip a weapon with a two-handed grip.
3. Everyone here (except maybe just irdeggman) chooses to rule this as a free action. This is neither RAW (because there's no rule on it) nor a houserule (because there's no rule on it -- unless you're of the opinion that anything that doesn't have a direct reference is a houserule, in which either case is a houserule and you're just pissing in the wind).
4. The DM can limit the number of free actions in a round. I choose to impose a limit on changing grips to 1/round. The reason for this has already been stated. This is directly supported by the rules.
Storm Raven said:
So, you are basically ignoring the rules as written in order to preserve "simultaneity", which is an invention of your own.
Once again claiming I'm not following the RAW? Is that all you can do every single thread? Care to show me where #1 and #2 above is proven wrong?

buzz said:
The irony is that this "simultaneity" is only being used to shaft spellcasters who weild 2H weapons. There's a whole cascade of effects that progresss from this fundamental misunderstanding of the rules that are not being applied by its proponents; it's just a DM hosing specific PCs. It's giving me 1e flashbacks.
I love the subtle insult there, buzz. Hey, if you don't understand your opponent's stance you just insult them. I think I stopped that passive aggressive behavior in the 6th grade.
 

Andras said:
The reason he doesn't threaten in the example is because he took a readied action on the opponents turn. If he threw the axe on his turn, he could have readied the Long Spear on his own turn as a free action.
But a readied action changes your init...

"Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round."

So when the readied action went off, it was the player's turn, right?

FAQ=teh suxxorz!
 

Frater said:
What would it take to allow a spellcaster to continue to cast spells while weilding (i.e. holding) a greatsword?

Is it just Eschew Materials and Still Spell as Feats?

If you go Havoc Mage (MiniHB) you can cast a spell AND make 1 attack as a full round action. So you can, in effect, cast True Strike and Power Attack (and Wraithstrike if you really want to) all in 1 round.
 

FYI:

Sam S. of WotC Customer Support said:
They can cast a spell and return their hand to grip the weapon immediately afterward. This is a free action. Keep in mind you could not do this on your opponent's turn, because you cannot perform even free actions when it's not your turn.
 

Infiniti2000 said:
A full-round action therefore consumes 6 seconds worth of time. QED. Really, you already understand this part, so what are you confused about?
I'm not confused. IMO, you're confusing "Full-Round Action" with "1 round" and totally ignoring the fact, as stated in the quote from the DMG I provided, that actions in combat happen in sequence. E.g., a fighter making a Full Attack is not attacking throughout the round as other characers take their actions; the attacks happen on their turn, and then you move on. This is D&D 101.

Infiniti2000 said:
Apples and Oranges. A fighter making attacks is not doing something that explicitly prevents him from making attacks.
A Standard Action is a Standard Action, and a Full-Round Action is a Full-Round Action. That's all I'm tryting to convey. Some people here are trying to put forth the idea that the Full-Round Action a fighter takes is somehow totally different in duration from the Full-Round Action a spellcaster takes.

Infiniti2000 said:
There's no snarkiness involved, but if you're going to get in on a thread and question someone's interpretation, make sure you know what it is.
Well, then feel free to clarify your point. I've read the thread.

Infiniti2000 said:
By RAW I can choose to limit free actions. What is not RAW is that it IS a free action. I'm being generous enough in making it a free action instead of a move action like the FAQ indirectly suggests.
I don't agree that the FAQ suggests this at all. Still, if you want to make "changing grips" into, effectively, a Swift Action, I suppose that's your perogative. I don't think the RAW points to this as logical, however. If you're going to upgrade "changing grip" to a Free Action, then, based on the other example Free Actions in the RAW, you should be limiting all your PCs to one Free Action per turn. That, or warning them to not invest in two-handed weapons.

Infiniti2000 said:
I love the subtle insult there, buzz. Hey, if you don't understand your opponent's stance you just insult them. I think I stopped that passive aggressive behavior in the 6th grade.
You can ease up on the ad hominems. My disagreeing with you isn't inherrently an insult, no matter how much you may wish it to be.
 


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