Greece Campaign Questions.

[Darklance]

As my game draws ever closer I've got a few questions left....

1) Anyone know of any maps that show territory divided up by city state? The one I found in Gurps Greece is great but only show Athens and a few of the surrounding territories.

2) Anyone have any concrete example Athenian military service? I know that at age 18 the take their vow and then do 2 years of military service. Where does this take place? Do they leave home to enter a barracks or is it a after hours type situation? I heard that these recruits make up the bulk of the standing army for that year but do the older men get drafted when more are needed?

3) Sparta conquered two surrounding territories and which gave them the bulk of southern peloponese (sp?). Were these areas simply territories of scattered towns or were there cities which lead them? I can't find any cities near Sparta which would fit (again I can't be sure do to not having a territory map).

4) I can't find any reference to lighter armor such as leather in use. Anyone know if it was available or often used?

5) When on the march (but not to a battle field) would Greek soldiers wear their heavy armor? It just seems to heavy...I'd think they would don it before the battle.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Try the following site...

http://www.historylink101.com/ancient_greece.htm

 

[Arsene Vulpin]

Hello,

1. I might find such a map for you, and scan it and e-mail it, but I need : 1- The W-E over and 2- a more precise date (century-wise) for the said map.

2. I believe that in the Vth century BC, military service was conscriptions, and thus, conscripts were housed in barracks. As for Athenian, it is certain that after the service, every "Citizen" was a potential reserve soldier. Athenian Citizenship encompassed both voting ability, and military conscription abidance.

3. Don't know at all.

4. Again, it depends on the epoch. Are you talking Bronze Age or Iron Age ? (Bronze age most probably)... Leather was anyway a base layer for cuirasses, at least.

5. I don't know for sure, but hoplon and shield are heavy enough not to burden with a rolled-over cuirass in the back. The handiest way to move it around would be to have it donned. That seems logical sense to me, but I may be in error.

I'll search my books on the subject... I have much, since I am an archaeologist ;°) (Specialised in Bronze Age, so for Clasical and Hellenistic Eras, I must search !)

I remain at your service.

 

[Klaus]

For THE best in-character look at the Hellenic Age, read the novel Gates of Fire, by Steven Pressfield (or Pressman), which details the years leading up to the Battle at Thermopylae (y'know, the 300 spartans thing).

Let me see if I can help a bit:

1) Try searching for Historical Greece Map on Google, or try the site of the Hellenic Ministry of Tourism.

2) Gates of Fire is your best bet. Only Sparta had a heavy military training, boot-camp style. Athens exported philosophies, Sparta exported soldiers. Spartans trained since they were 10, and were considered adults at about 16.

3) Sparta gained prominence over most of the Peloponeso, including Athens, at the Battle of Mantinea.

4) The Persian army (around 400 BC) used mostly lighter armor (no heavier than chain shirts). After being constantly harassed by the Persian cavalry, the Greeks (which used mainly the breastplate-wearing hoplites) adopted cavalry, archers and a light infantry called "peltastes").

5) Yep. 30 kilos of bronze and steel. Spartans trained for a lifetime in order to carry this weight.

 

[Tom Cashel]

A must-have

The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece.

Check out the details here at Amazon.

This, and the one on Rome, are excellent sourcebooks for this kind of thing...lots and lots of cultural details, and GREAT maps that go through the history era-by-era, changing to show trends, wars, etc.!

 

[mmadsen]

I highly recommend Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry.

On the subject of armor, the Greek Hoplite's armor consisted of a large, bronze-faced shield (hoplon), a bronze helmet, bronze "muscled" greaves, and either a bronze "muscled" cuirass or layers of linen or canvas glued together into a stiff shirt (linothorax). The linothorax was often reinforced with metal plates or scales.

The light infantry, or peltasts, wore no armor and carried a light wicker shield (pelta). They relied on javelins, slings, etc. for offense, and on their fleet feet for defense.

 

[Darklance]

On the subject of armor, the Greek Hoplite's armor consisted of a large, bronze-faced shield (hoplon), a bronze helmet, bronze "muscled" greaves, and either a bronze "muscled" cuirass or layers of linen or canvas glued together into a stiff shirt (linothorax). The linothorax was often reinforced with metal plates or scales.

Really? I had assumed that after the dark ages, the armor had become iron along with the weapons.

 

[mmadsen]

Really? I had assumed that after the dark ages, the armor had become iron along with the weapons.

Dark Ages? That's a term used for the early Middle Ages, after the Fall of Rome -- well into the Iron Age.

The typical image of a Greek Hoplite, in bronze Corinthian helmet, bronze greaves, and bronze "muscled" cuirass comes from the 5th century B.C., during the Persian War and the later Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta. Only their spearheads, arrowheads, and (short) swords were iron.

 

[Darklance]

Dark Ages Greece was after the "barbarian" invasion that destroyed Mycaneae and most of Greece...as well as the whole concept of palace society. The barbarians had metal weapons and the Greeks only bronze. The art of writing was lost and just about everything else.

Its considered the division between Heroic Greece and Classic Greece. Afterwards the whole Polis concept came about and recoverey began.

 

[Arsene Vulpin]

--> Klaus

I don't know what Pressman is worth, and what he actually said, but there is a small error,

The battle of the Thermopylae is the beginning of the Persian War (480BC), and that's even before the Athenian League was even formed. So you can see that we are very far yet from the "Hellenic Age" which describes the period beginning with Alexander's Macedonian Empire, as a contender to Rome's Power.
Thermopyale would be then, right in the Classical Era.

This is however, a very minor error, which I couldn't help but remark, just to add my grain of salt. Sorry for the being obnoxious.

As for Iron/Bronze use. Spearheads, swords, arrowheads were, since 1200 BC, made of Iron and/or Steel, all over Greece and attending nations.
Bronze was, however not forgotten, and it was used, for : Beauty and uncorrodability, to coat over Iron weapons and armours...
A bronze weapon or shield would be almost twice as heavy as an Iron shield/weapon/armor, because of : The sheer weight of the Cu-Sn alloy versus the Fe-C alloy, and bulk needed to obtain workable tensile properties.
Use of bronze in weaponry was like : apparatus, prestige or so on....For armor however, bronze was castable, wheras iron must be hammered, so, for muscular plates (think of Centurion breastpaltes for romans), It was actually bronze. The same for scaled armor, since bronze scales (byzantine) are quite easier to replace (and recast) than Iron one.

As a final approach to Bronze/Iron use, just think that Iron/Steel was never cast (apart from accident) in Europe (albeit it is different in Africa and Far-East) before the 14th-15th century CE, with the invention of the Blast furnace. So think how it is convenient to build an object by cutting ,hammering solid steel, or casting it out of bronze. Then, think that bronze is thought far more beautiful to Greeks than Iron, plus it's non corrodable, yet it is heavy and either very ductile (deformable) or very fragile (breakable).
Now use only your common sense, and you'll find by yourself which was used for what, and be right 9 out of 10 times. It is quite easy, those facts known, to find out.