Greece Campaign Questions.

[Agback]

Dark Ages? That's a term used for the early Middle Ages, after the Fall of Rome -- well into the Iron Age.

It is also used for a period in Greek history from the Dorian Invasions around 900 BC until the emergence of the Archaic Period around 600 BC.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

How long would papyrus last?

Papyrus will last until it gets wet. There are Egyptian papyruses 3000 years old that are a little bit brown, but still perfectly legible and supple enough to roll and unroll. But let it once get damp and it disintegrates.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Another question...what did the Greeks use for paper? I'm trying to figure out how long a scroll could last. I don't think eqyptian papyrus would have been imported so what? Animal skins?

Actually, they did import papyrus.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Another question about bronze...

You need tin to make bronze, right? So did Greece have a lot of tin or did they import it? What type of terrain should I put in my world for a spot where I want lots of tin to be found?

Tin was the usual alloying material in European bronze, but other elements such as arsenic and antimony will also make hard castable alloys with copper, which are also called bronze. The Greeks got most of their copper from Cyprus and their tin from Cornwall and (I think) Anatolia.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

Okay, then, I understand better. The hero is from the hellenistic period, but relates the Battle of the Hot Gates.

Not all that much sense. The Battle of Thermopylae was in 480 BC, and the Hellenistic Period can't be reckoned any earlier than about 360 BC.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Agback]

2) Anyone have any concrete example Athenian military service? I know that at age 18 the take their vow and then do 2 years of military service. Where does this take place? Do they leave home to enter a barracks or is it a after hours type situation? I heard that these recruits make up the bulk of the standing army for that year but do the older men get drafted when more are needed?

Older men up to the age of sixty were drafted as needed. In fact, it was the older men who were sent whenever an expeditionary force was needed. The ephebes (18-20 year-old conscripts) did garrison duty in Attica, and were retained for border protection when the army proper (consisting of adult soldiers) was sent on foreign duty.

For your concrete example, consider the force that was send under Alkibiades to conquer Sicily. It consisted entirely of older men.

3) Sparta conquered two surrounding territories and which gave them the bulk of southern peloponese (sp?). Were these areas simply territories of scattered towns or were there cities which lead them? I can't find any cities near Sparta which would fit.

Sparta's main rivals in the southern Pelopennese were Argos and Messenia, while in Arcadia their main foe (or rather, the main foe of their ally Tegea) was Mantineia.

4) I can't find any reference to lighter armor such as leather in use. Anyone know if it was available or often used?

Yes, leather was used, and so was thickly-woven blanket-like material. Consider for example the aegis (a leather cloak/shield protecting the left arm and shoulder), and the perizoma (a sort of kilt/apron protecting the lower abdomen and thighs. These were usually of leather or heavy cloth.

5) When on the march (but not to a battle field) would Greek soldiers wear their heavy armor? It just seems to heavy...I'd think they would don it before the battle.

Some had servants to carry their armour, but most wore it on the march.

As a reference on Greek military organisation and equipment, let me recommend "The Ancient Greeks" by N.V. Sekunda (illustrated by Angus McBride). It is published by Osprey Publishing, and has ISBN 0-85045-686-X.

Also, let me recommend "The Last of the Wine" by Mary Renault. This is a well-researched and superbly-written novel about an Athenian boy of good family growing to manhood during the Pelopennesian War (431-404 BC) and its immediate aftermath. You might also find "Soldier of the Mist" and its sequel "Soldier of Arete", by Gene Wolfe to be good value (they are set in 479-478 BC, in the aftermath of the Second Persian War).

"How the Greeks Built Cities" by R.E. Wycherly is very much worth reading for any GM who is going to set adventures in Greece of any sort of pseudo-Greece, but you might find it difficult to get.

And of course Herodotos' "Histories" are a great read and full of fantasy material.

Regards,


Agback

 

[elforcelf]

Mythic Greece

Hi I just like to say if anyone that is reading this thread wants to game in the mythic time of greece I think Mythic Greece from Iron Crown Enterprises by Aaron Allston is the book for you. I know that it was printed in 1988 and might be hard to get but it is very good.elforcelf

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Resources:
I used the following sources, although remember that my campaign is set in Heroic (Mycenaen) Greece rather than Classical Greece.
Boardman, John, et al. (ed.), Oxford History of the Classical World.
Bulfinch, Thomas. Bulfinch’s Mythology - The Age of Fable or Stories of Gods and Heroes (http://www.bulfinch.org/)
Durant, Will. The Life of Greece.
Elliot, Paul. Heroes of Delphi (http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/delphi-intro.html)
Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/)
Georg Luck, Axis Mundi.
Hare, J.B. (ed.). Sacred Texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm)
Homer, The Iliad (Robert Fagles trans.).
Homer, The Odyssey (Robert Fagles trans.).
Kaine, Thomas M., GURPS Egypt.
Keegan, John. History of Warfare.
Osborne, Robin, Greece in the Making 1200-479 B.C.
Oxford Classical Mythology Online (http://www.oup-usa.org/sc/0195143388/index.html)
Parada, Carlos. Greek Mythology Link (http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/index.html)
Perseus Digital Library (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/)
Short History of the Trojan War (http://www.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html)
Zeigler, John F., GURPS Greece.

I also recommend Victor Davis Hanson's "The Western Way of War" which is a fantastic resource for Greek warfare. I gave it a brief review, here:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/ancient.html#hanson

 

[William Ronald]

You might want to check out http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ which is the web site of the Perseus Project. It has links to many sites on ancient Greece and Rome, as well as copies of original texts.

 

[Jon F. Zeigler]

Tin was the usual alloying material in European bronze, but other elements such as arsenic and antimony will also make hard castable allos with copper, which are also called bronze. The Greeks got most of their copper from Cyprus and their tin from Cornwall and (I think) Anatolia.

As an interesting side note: I read recently that arsenic-based bronze was quite common in the early Bronze Age, and in regions where tin was in short supply. Apparently arsenical ores often come with copper ores, and the first bronze probably happened when someone tried to use a lump of ore which included both copper and arsenic.

The thing is that chronic exposure to very small quantities of arsenic leads to muscular atrophy - you get weak muscles which you have a hard time controlling. The author pointed out that this might be one reason why you get crippled smiths in so many different myth cycles from different cultures.

Source: H. W. F. Saggs, Civilization Before Greece and Rome (Yale University Press, 1989)