Greyhawk being dumped as the core setting in 3.5

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: Re: Re: My Trolly Sense is tingling...

What did I get wildly wrong, out of curiousity? My post was supposed to be opinion, not fact. The 50-75% part?

Well, "wildly" was probably overstating the case. Wee Jas (and that's pronounced "We-Jaahs", afaik, not "We-Jass") is female, and that's a pretty big thing to miss. Fharlangan IS the diety of Travellers (but I don't have the book here, and while I thought it listed Travellers and Roads, I can't say for sure).

The linguistic consistency is one issue, and a big one. You just don't have a St. Cuthbert, a Fharlanghn, a Kord, and a Heironeous in the same culture's pantheon.

No, you don't, and the PHB makes it sound like you do. The fact that GH has a sum total of around 300 divine beings when all is said and done doesn't help. Even with context, it's confusing. I also agree it's inconsistent. Heironeous, Fharlangan, Celestian, Hextor, Sotillion, Wenta and Zilchus just don't make sense grammatically. Those are all Oeridian dieties, and you've got pseudo-Greek, pseudo-Celtic and I guess pseudo-Roman all mixed in there.

I don't agree that all of the names are ridiculous, however. I also hasten to point out that some of the GH dieties slid on over to the Realms, pretty much intact. The PHB does present the dieties as examples, not as the be-all end-all of the system. Enough are presented so that you could run a game with some heroic deities and some evil deities and run with it. The very first module WoTC produced introduced Ashardalon, a dragon so powerful he was worshipped as a god. The door was left pretty wide open, if you ask me. Not to mention the D&Dg avenue.

On the other hand, you point to real-world pantheons...you know, ones that people ACTUALLY WORSHIPPED, and find them wanting. Can't help you much, there.

 

[Sixchan]

Hmm...have you ever noticed how around a third of people on Earth just call their God 'God', yet that never seems to happen in D&D? It'd save a lot of time.

"DM: As you drag the injured fighter back to town, you meet a cleric on the road. He claims to be a Cleric of God."

Although come to think of it, Gond from FR isn't so far off it. One of my characters in a PbP game is/was a Cleric of Gond, and has taken to saying 'Oh Gond' when things are bad, which sounds a hell of a lot more natural than 'Oh Wee Jas' or 'Oh Fharlangan'.

 

[Celebrim]

"Although come to think of it, Gond from FR isn't so far off it. One of my characters in a PbP game is/was a Cleric of Gond, and has taken to saying 'Oh Gond' when things are bad, which sounds a hell of a lot more natural than 'Oh Wee Jas' or 'Oh Fharlangan'."

Well, it's witty, and on that grounds I'd probably smile at it as a DM, but I really feel that this is just another fine example of why you should avoid modernity in your thinking when trying to role play someone from another culture.

'Oh Gond' may sound more natural to you, but you probably aren't a particularly pious person if you think so. While 'Oh God' might be the natural thing for a modern person to say, it is hardly a respectful thing to say. Do you imagine many ministers, rabbis, and priests going around saying 'Oh God'? Why do you imagine a cleric of Gond going around saying 'Oh Gond'?

Many religious people when they forget themselves say at most something like 'Dear Lord', because this is at least a form of address that they are familiar with, but even then they tend to feel slightly ashamed of themselves. For instance, "Dear Lord, what have you done?" when the 'you' in in the sentence does not refer to the 'Lord' in the sentence makes it pretty clear that the 'Dear Lord' = vulgarity not respectful address. 'Oh God' is pretty much right out unless it begins something like 'Oh God, hear my prayer...' and even then it is more likely to be something like 'Oh mighty God...' or 'Oh gracious God...'

I would expect that in terms of oath taking, making, and addressing deities that there would be various standard forms of addresses for each diety. A person might say 'Oh Mighty Wonderbringer' or 'Oh Dread Wee Jas' or 'Oh Merciful Lord of the Road' or something similar. A little research and experimentation ought to find something appropriate for each deity both as an oath and form of common address.

 

[DDK]

Hmm...have you ever noticed how around a third of people on Earth just call their God 'God', yet that never seems to happen in D&D?

Actually, I think it'd be closer to half. Hindu and Buddhism make up roughly one half, IIRC, and Cathlocism/Christianity and Muslim make up roughly the other half, with I think more Muslim worshipers than Catholic/Christian.

 

[Desdichado]

Gee... and I've always kinda liked that not all the names in Greyhawk sounded like the invention of a native English speaker, and not all of them sounded like English nicknames, and most importantly none of them sounded like the shallow inventions or word associations a junior high kid inventing the 'god of rangers' and the 'the god of paladins' and 'the god of magic-users' because he had never had any exposure to any deeper mythological references and had a pretty limited working vocabulary to boot.

Just because some concepts are worse doesn't mean the concepts are good. And I'm talking about the names, anyway, not the concepts. Sure, they weren't English nicknames, but that doesn't equal good names. In fact, it's the often unfortunate resemblance to words we do know, or the odd-looking jumble of syllables that make the Greyhawk names particularly offensive.

I suppose everyone thinks Helm, Mystra, Bane, and a hodgepodge of dieties borrowed from the old Dieties and Demigods supplement are so much better choices for invented deities.

Sheesh.

Nope, not really. Neither GH nor FR have particularly compelling pantheons, IMO.

 

[Henry]

Actually, I think it'd be closer to half. Hindu and Buddhism make up roughly one half, IIRC, and Cathlocism/Christianity and Muslim make up roughly the other half, with I think more Muslim worshipers than Catholic/Christian.

Depends on the religion. In monotheistic religions, "God" or equivalent is proper - there's only the one. But in a pantheistic religion, there is a difference. I wonder what the Ancient Greeks and Norse folk used as both forms of address and curses and epithets?

 

[Sixchan]

"Although come to think of it, Gond from FR isn't so far off it. One of my characters in a PbP game is/was a Cleric of Gond, and has taken to saying 'Oh Gond' when things are bad, which sounds a hell of a lot more natural than 'Oh Wee Jas' or 'Oh Fharlangan'."

Well, it's witty, and on that grounds I'd probably smile at it as a DM, but I really feel that this is just another fine example of why you should avoid modernity in your thinking when trying to role play someone from another culture.

'Oh Gond' may sound more natural to you, but you probably aren't a particularly pious person if you think so. While 'Oh God' might be the natural thing for a modern person to say, it is hardly a respectful thing to say. Do you imagine many ministers, rabbis, and priests going around saying 'Oh God'? Why do you imagine a cleric of Gond going around saying 'Oh Gond'?

Many religious people when they forget themselves say at most something like 'Dear Lord', because this is at least a form of address that they are familiar with, but even then they tend to feel slightly ashamed of themselves. For instance, "Dear Lord, what have you done?" when the 'you' in in the sentence does not refer to the 'Lord' in the sentence makes it pretty clear that the 'Dear Lord' = vulgarity not respectful address. 'Oh God' is pretty much right out unless it begins something like 'Oh God, hear my prayer...' and even then it is more likely to be something like 'Oh mighty God...' or 'Oh gracious God...'

I would expect that in terms of oath taking, making, and addressing deities that there would be various standard forms of addresses for each diety. A person might say 'Oh Mighty Wonderbringer' or 'Oh Dread Wee Jas' or 'Oh Merciful Lord of the Road' or something similar. A little research and experimentation ought to find something appropriate for each deity both as an oath and form of common address.

This is definitely the bit where I add Background information, right? OK...the character is eight years old, and she's not EXACTLY a cleric, though she has some minor divine magical powers.
...Well, see, I'm playing her in two games, one where she is eight (and her town was just blown into a million pieces, her parents are dead, and she's getting mentally unstable) and another in her later life after she isn't a Cleric of Gond anymore, being that (at least in her opinion) her God abandoned her (oh, and she's still not in the best mental health, but at least the voices are gone and have only been replaced with depression and feelings of helplessness).

Oh, and did I mention that she says "Oh Gond" like the next words in the sentence are "please help me not die"? Nah, I probably didn't. My bad.

 

[Celebrim]

"Nope, not really. Neither GH nor FR have particularly compelling pantheons, IMO."

Ok, on that we can agree. The first reasonably compelling invented pantheon for D&D I'm aware of was published in 'The Book of the Righteous'. That was the book I'd always wanted to publish on D&D religion, only probably done better than I ever could have managed.

 

[DDK]

Depends on the religion. In monotheistic religions, "God" or equivalent is proper - there's only the one. But in a pantheistic religion, there is a difference.

Well, I know Hindu is pantheistic but Buddhism, at least the main sect, isn't even a religion, technically, as there is no worship of a supreme beings or being, only a supreme ethos. That's why I grouped them together.

And Islam holds 'Allah' or God, as the highest being so I lumped that together with Christianity/Catholcism.

As a side note, one of the Baklunish gods in the Greyhawk world is Al'akbar (a mighty hero-god along much the same lines as Saladin), which (IIRC) is a rough equivalent to "Praise be to God" in Islam.

I challenge anyone to say that's a stupid name for a god

I wonder what the Ancient Greeks and Norse folk used as both forms of address and curses and epithets?

That's actually a thread I wanted to start up a while ago, essentially to get curses and whatnot for a game. But I figured it'd be too inflammatory

In my GH game, I use the GH name for orcs and goblins as a swear word. In GH goblins are called Jeblin and it kinda sounds cool as a curse, "Jeblin fools!"

I also use deity names in certain contexts like with Dalt, the god of portals and locks, as in, "Dalt damn you!" as a sortof, "Shutup will ya!" kinda saying, ie. portal = mouth... eh, I never said I was brilliant

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I like the Greyhawk dieties, and if you actually know anything about Oerth you know they are not all from the same pathenon of gods. As for the names...well if you have players that crack up when someone says "wood" or "but" then I guess Wee Jas is just a laugh riot.