[GRIM TALES] A few questions...

[Lysander]

Since lethal damage is the only thing that should count for massive damage, I'd argue that the conversion should happen first before the save. That's just my opinion, though.

Well, I can certainly see that. I'd just hate to see a player spend an action point to confirm a critical and not even force a Massive Damage save on some heavily armored brute. Maybe the best solution is to resolve the conversion first, but have criticals ignore damage conversion from armor.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well, I can certainly see that. I'd just hate to see a player spend an action point to confirm a critical and not even force a Massive Damage save on some heavily armored brute. Maybe the best solution is to resolve the conversion first, but have criticals ignore damage conversion from armor.

On the other hand, when the heavily armored brute strikes back, I suppose the player will be glad for his own armor.

Critical hit rules always favor the monsters. Presumably if you're playing with the armor conversion rules, you're playing "defense" in favor of the players. And if you're playing defense, then the players shouldn't expect attacks, crits or otherwise, to be more lethal to the monsters than they are on themselves.

Wulf

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

On the other hand, when the heavily armored brute strikes back, I suppose the player will be glad for his own armor.

Critical hit rules always favor the monsters. Presumably if you're playing with the armor conversion rules, you're playing "defense" in favor of the players. And if you're playing defense, then the players shouldn't expect attacks, crits or otherwise, to be more lethal to the monsters than they are on themselves.

Wulf

It's amazing how Wulf always has the right answer.

The one thing I would add is to look at what formula you are using for MDT and the composition of your group. If you are playing a bunch of knights in platemail and using the most forgiving MDT, then you might want to go with the more lethal 'MDT before armor' check. Personally, I like to find the sweet spot where the characters don't get swatted like flies every combat, but it happens once in a while and keeps them honest.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's amazing how Wulf always has the right answer.

Not amazing really, when you consider the source.

The one thing I would add is to look at what formula you are using for MDT and the composition of your group.

Ah, ah, ah! Good point.

You definitely DO NOT want to mix these two options:

a) MDT = Con + Armor + Natural Armor

AND

b) Armor Conversion

Otherwise, armor counts twice!

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I usually do MDT after conversion, as well. But I generally have lower-Armor Bonus people in my games anyway.

I'm also going to be using a few House Rules added in:

MDT DC = 10 + 1/2 Damage Dealt (ouch)

Critical Hits always force MDT saves (above DC formula) even if it doesn't break the cap (so even big armor isn't all-powerful)

And the new -hp = Con Damage rule from Black Company.

CONTEMPLATING that whole thing where during the surprise round all damage goes to Con, but one of my players threatened to stab me.

Course it's a war-themed game I'll be running, and a gritty one at that.

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

CONTEMPLATING that whole thing where during the surprise round all damage goes to Con

For a second I thought, "Wow! That's interesting..." but quickly changed my mind.

I can't rationalize it from a real-world point of view, given that the game has Hit Points to start with (a decidedly non-real mechanic).

From a design perspective I also worry that it puts way too much emphasis on simply acting first. I dearly love Shadowrun, for example, but it devolves into silly bouts of "Who can raise their reflexes the highest?"

When, "If you're not first, you're dead..." becomes the rule of the game-- for however realistic that may be-- it's not good game design. Too many other game assumptions begin to revolve about that one seemingly innocuous change.

Wulf

 

[Lysander]

I'm interested, Wulf, on your thoughts on linking the Massive Damage DC to the damage dealt (10 + 1/2 damage dealt, or similiar). While I'm not looking to make things any more deadly for my players, I'm curious why this popular house rule wasn't even a variant in Grim Tales.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well that's my thought too, Wulf. Alertness becomes THE most important feat in the game, and everybody would have Spot and Listen maxed out, even cross-class, just to keep from getting hit with that surprise round.

What I DO like is that it's reasonably transparent to the HP rules while allowing you to model quick, dirty ambushes and long-range sniping.

As you say, however, it's a small change that becomes horribly pivotal. And, because the PCs get into more combats (and thus have more chances to be surprised) it's much more deadly for them that way.

It's a war-themed game, however, so I want to keep lethality high and really have them keeping their heads down, along with rewarding good recon and long-range tactics by keeping OUT of surprise and being able to hit from afar with surprise and take down a critical objective with one round. Instead of twenty.

I'm really liking my "all criticals force MDT" rules ... with Grim Tales I don't have to confirm every critical on the PCs if I don't want to, so I don't have to worry about constantly dropping every PC with low Fort, but it allows the PCs to drop even high-con critters and NPCs with small arms on a good shot.

So I'm thinking of implementing it on the surprise round ... making lethality potentially high, but not the soul-numbing horror of that hard-to-recover CON damage. The DCs would stay low (at normal damages) but still keep that fear-o-God in ya.

--fje

 

[GlassJaw]

You definitely DO NOT want to mix these two options:

a) MDT = Con + Armor + Natural Armor

AND

b) Armor Conversion

Otherwise, armor counts twice!

Hmm, I never realized this before, and it's what I was planning for my upcoming GT campaign.

So what would you recommend? I don't think I want to use Con score by itself. What about Con + 1/2 character level? (which I'm pretty sure is a variant from Unearthed Arcana)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm interested, Wulf, on your thoughts on linking the Massive Damage DC to the damage dealt (10 + 1/2 damage dealt, or similiar). While I'm not looking to make things any more deadly for my players, I'm curious why this popular house rule wasn't even a variant in Grim Tales.

A popular house rule in D&D, maybe, but I doubt it in Modern.

Take a look at Fort saves across the board for all Hero classes, lower ability scores at start, fewer ability score buffs, and a lack of magical boosts to Fort saves.

So what would you recommend? I don't think I want to use Con score by itself. What about Con + 1/2 character level? (which I'm pretty sure is a variant from Unearthed Arcana)

I'd go with just Con. Let them take Improved Damage Threshold.

And remember, GT is already toned down-- a failed MDT save drops them to dying status, not dead.

To me, this is the perfect "sweet spot."

You want to see your players overly concerned with getting the best possible armor and/or judiciously avoiding combat, just as they would in "real life," but not turn them into cowards.

Wulf