Grim Tales + BCCS Magic: A Tale of Two Systems

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well it's been requested elsewhere that I talk about my experiences inexpertly blending GT with the BCCS magic system. Or, at any rate, what I've thus-far reverse engineered of the BCCS magic system as Amazon keeps pushing my ship date back.

I'm pretty sure I've got the bones of it ... Use Magic, armor check penalty x2, Cha based, the DC changes from the crib sheets, etc etc.

I've reverse engineered the Force talent (gives a +1 Deflection bonus to AC, DC 10 for an AC+2 Sheild, DC 15 for a 1d4 nonlethal bolt, etc.)

The Wizard is serving on board an airship, and wanted something to make WIND so I made up a little DC 10 based Air talent. Recreates a half-power Gust Of Wind at DC 10, full D&D Gust Of Wind at DC 15, and a 5' square Wind Wall for one round for DC 20. He can then whip up a wide/long/extended 25mph wind and help push the ship along ... by dancing up a spell for part of the morning, anyway. For the "Permanent Bonus" for that one all falling damage is treated as if the fall were 20' shorter. I imagine there's something similar in the book, but as I said, don't have it yet. Thus far those are the two talents he has.

BCCS wizards get Student of Wizardry at 1st, 1st Magnitude at 4th, 2nd Magnitude at 10th, and 3rd Magnitude at 16. I'm making each of those a Smart/Dedicated/Charismatic TALENT chain so they can only be taken at odd levels, bumping that to 1st, 5th, 11th, 17th.

The delayed progression, however, is in no way a problem because there's one thing that, unchecked, seems to make GT BCCS wizards much much more powerful.

Savant.

Because Use Magic is a skill check, our wizard used his 3rd Smart level to pick up Savant: Magic Use, giving him currently a +4 bonus on ALL Use Magic rolls. This may or may not be overpowered, but we've not seen anything to suggest it thus far. To balance it, I've entirely removed the Talent Focus feat (+5 to a particular talent) though as of next level Savant will give him the equivalent of Focus in EVERY talent he ever has.

Now, at exceedingly high levels this can top out to a +20 on Use Magic after all 20 levels of Smart are tossed in. He doesn't seem to be interested much in changing out of Smart as it offers pretty much everything he'll need, so for all intents and purposes SMART will be the obvious wizarding class for GT as things stand.

I'm not sure how many HP a BCCS wizard gets, but between the 16 Con he paid dearly for and the 1d6 HD he's got more than enough HP that, so far, the drain he takes from casting spells is the least of his worries. His biggest worry, so far, is still being a Student Of Wizardry and having crappy Aptitude. He can't cast anything more than a 25mph burst of wind or 1 round +2 AC spell as a standard action, so he can't really DO anything in combat. We have firearms, so standing around chanting and waving fetishes around for 2-3 rounds is a great way to catch a musketball in the teeth. Not that he doesn't try, usually, but he's expressed alot of frustration with the fact that he can't cast any spells and he can't store more than 3. Not a LOT of frustration. I just asked and he said, in general, he really likes the way his character is turning out and the way the magic system works. He just wishes he could do more in a day than cast "big ones". There's no medium ground. He can't whallop a guy from 50' for 2d4 nonlethal without 2-3 rounds of prep time. But earlier in the day he can prep a 20' 5d4 banger and cast it with no problem, so there's some disparity there. Not sure if that appears in the BCCS game.

--fje

 

[Old One]

Heap,

Are you using GT drain or BCCS drain?

As far as the Air Talent goes...

Air Talent

Prerequisites: 1st Magnitude (Base DC 15)
Prop: Somatic
Range: 10'
Effect: Line-shaped gust of moderate wind
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

(Paraphrased) A blast of air (~ 20 mph) originating from you and affecting all creatures in its path. 50% chance of extinguishing candles, torches and similar unprotected flames. 25% chance to extinguish protected flames such as lanterns. Also, air magic does anything that a sudden blast of wind can be expected to do - like creating a spray of sand or dust, fanning a fire, rocking a small boat, blowing gas/vapors to the edge of its range, etc.

Augmented Effects: Area/Target, Range, Duration, Props

Increased potentcy (+5 DC for each step):

• Strong Wind (30 mph)
• Severe Wind (50 mph)
• Windstorm (70 mph)
• Hurricane (150 mph)
• Tornado (300 mph)

Each increase in severity affects ranged attacks, flight and can knock down, blow away or check creatures of various sizes.

Continuous Effects: +3 bonus to Jump checks for selecting talent

Synergy: 5+ ranks in Knowledge (nature) grants +2 bonus to Use Magic check

Hope that helps until your book arrives!

~ Old One

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Wow. Guess I overpowered Air quite a bit. I'll probably leave him with my Air magic talent, but use that one for any NPCs, since the PC is from a pretty air-oriented culture. I have it at 25mph, with each +5 DC adding 25mph.

We're using BCCS drain, 1d8+X nonlethal damage. He has 27hp and 6 Spell Energy, so it takes quite a bit of spellcasting to hurt him. He has 7 Ranks in Use Magic, +3 (Skill Focus), +4 (Savant), +2 (Synergy), +2 Student of Wizardry, +2 Cha for an average +20 Magic Use roll. He doesn't mind adding Focus and Somatic components to spells so he usually gets +28. This is a hefty bonus. He can get the DC on a spell up to 30 without blinking.

But his Aptitude is only 9 (+7 Ranks, +2 Student) so while he can cast a DC 35 spell 65% of the time it takes 3 full rounds to do it. He only takes 1d8 subdual damage from that casting (1d8+6, -6). It's the time that makes it killer as in my game, most combat is wrapping up around round three and standing still for that long will get you shot. For DC 35 he'd get something like a 5d4 Subdual, 10' burst at 50', with a save for half. That's an average of 12 Nonlethal damage. Which isn't shabby ... he tosses those down around the last few rounds to finish up small clusters of enemies who have few HP left so the nonlethal kicks them over into knocked out, but its relatively little actual damage for alot of time output.

We're going to see what it looks like next level, when I should have access to the book, he'll be picking up 1st Mag, and he might be able to get a little more done in a round or two. Right now I'd put him about par with a musket ... 3 round reload for 3d8 damage to one target. He's 3 round reload for 5d4 to 1-4 targets (10' burst).

--fje

 

[ragboy]

He only takes 1d8 subdual damage from that casting (1d8+6, -6).

So, I don't have either book, so I add nothing to the conversation, but I really really want both. Question: Does everyone suffer from fatigue in combat, or is it just the spellcasters? I haven't seen this implemented in d20 (though Action! System has a mechanic for it), but wouldn't an across the board fatigue metric balance the power between the various archetypical characters? It seems like when you go to a low magic setting, the magicians get screwed because they're pooped after one spell, but the barbarian can swing his sword for 12 hours a day without tiring and the thief can sneak around, worrying about traps and whether the Fire Giant can see/hear/smell him without effect. I guess it could get a little too 'grim n' gritty,' though.

 

[Fenris]

So, I don't have either book, so I add nothing to the conversation, but I really really want both. Question: Does everyone suffer from fatigue in combat, or is it just the spellcasters? I haven't seen this implemented in d20 (though Action! System has a mechanic for it), but wouldn't an across the board fatigue metric balance the power between the various archetypical characters? It seems like when you go to a low magic setting, the magicians get screwed because they're pooped after one spell, but the barbarian can swing his sword for 12 hours a day without tiring and the thief can sneak around, worrying about traps and whether the Fire Giant can see/hear/smell him without effect. I guess it could get a little too 'grim n' gritty,' though.

That's why it's low magic. That is how in these systems, you keep people from throwing them around all day. BUT, remember that those that can cast spells can often do much more in these systems as well. I can't speak for Black Company, but a Grim Tales Smart hero who has dedicated themselves (as much as possible) to cast the meager spells he can find can still do quite a bit without spells.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Along similar lines, a Black Company Wizard (who has d6 hit point die, btw), is not solely defined by his ability to cast spells.

First, a comment about low magic settings: low magic generally means magic is rare and difficult to cast. The mechanics vary, but generally they limit the ability of spellcasters to cast spells. In Conan, a low level spellcaster can do little without becoming fatigued. I would say tht in Black Company they have improved upon this by balancing things out. A low level spellcaster will become fatigued quite quickly, but has some options to make their one or two spells more or less powerful to scale the fatigue they take. You take less fatigue if you limit the effects of your spell and more if you try to make your spell affect more targets, have a longer range, increase the effect, etc. In Black Company, as well, the only limit on your casting is fatigue -- while there are spell points, you are not required to use them to cast spells. Instead, their primary function is to limit the fatigue the character takes from casting spells. Important to note about many low magic settings... at higher levels spellcasters are MORE powerful than other characters. This is true of both Conan and Black Company.

Second, a comment about the utility of Black Company spellcasters at low levels. Certain spell effects, including Ghost Sounds and Prestidigitation, are skills rather than spells. While a low level caster may not be terribly skilled at them, he at least can use magic to create spell-like effects without suffering any fatigue whatsoever. If players can change their thinking about how to deal with opponents, this can make a 1st or 2nd level wizard very, very useful to the party. But players who think in traditional D&D terms of moving into a room and killing everything will not want to have anything to do with spellcasters in low magic settings.

 

[ragboy]

Along similar lines, a Black Company Wizard (who has d6 hit point die, btw), is not solely defined by his ability to cast spells.

First, a comment about low magic settings: low magic generally means magic is rare and difficult to cast. The mechanics vary, but generally they limit the ability of spellcasters to cast spells.

Right the mechanics vary, but the usual given reason that magic is rare is that it's 'expensive' to the spellcaster.

Well, now I'd like to get both BC and Conan, but I just spend all my RPG ducats on GT and Slavelords. Anyway... sounds interesting.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Grrrr. I'm starting to get annoyed with the BCCS BOOK though. I can't find it in local stores, ordered it from Amazon weeks ago ... first they pushed shipping back to the 28th. Then the 2nd of Feb. Now it's pushed to the 16th of Feb.

Supposedly I'm SAVING 20 dollars (getting it for 30 with free shipping), can't see my way to canceling the order and paying 50 ... not to mention my wife was upset that I'd spent the 30 on "another game book" already.

This is why I never order from Amazon anymore. I actually GET the books I order from B&N, but they don't carry the BCCS yet/at all.

--fje