Grim Tales: CR Calc Worksheet fix

[Yuan-Ti]

Thanks, guys! Awesome customer service!

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Thanks, guys! Awesome customer service!

Well, thank HT, mostly.

Honestly, we couldn't even see the problem. If folks don't speak up, we can't help. Having HT go through the whole spreadsheet and call out cell by cell made the fix possible.


Wulf

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

That's me, your/my customer-service one-stop warehousing superstore.

I love getting things done fast fast fast, so these sheets are great. Picked up the Encounter and Mass Combat sheets recently, as well. Mass Combat because it was 2.00$ for a mass combat system with a spreadsheet and I've been looking for one. EL because I love a quick XP breakdown.

Just last night I used the fixed Creature CR Sheet to figure out a questionable monster's CR. The GM put three 8th level PCs up against a "CR 9" dragon that fought the group to a standstill as just part of an encounter and nearly TPKed the whole group before we all agreed something was way off and paused. CR sheet statted out the "CR 9" dragon at CR 12. Ow. It was supposed to be part of a "Very Difficult" Equal-EL major encounter, turned it into a full route.

--fje

 

[Old One]

Is this a fix we can do on the spreadsheet if we already have a copy of it?

Thanks,

~ Oldie

PS - Does the Mass Combat .pdf/download scale infinitely? It sounds like it does and that it is very flexible...any thoughts/reviews before I toss a couple of bills Wulf's way?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Just last night I used the fixed Creature CR Sheet to figure out a questionable monster's CR. The GM put three 8th level PCs up against a "CR 9" dragon that fought the group to a standstill as just part of an encounter and nearly TPKed the whole group before we all agreed something was way off and paused. CR sheet statted out the "CR 9" dragon at CR 12. Ow. It was supposed to be part of a "Very Difficult" Equal-EL major encounter, turned it into a full route.

To be fair, remember that normal D&D dragons are intentially "undercosted" in order to make them "seem" tougher.

(This of course being a WOTC designer shortcut for GMs who can't intelligently play a dragon to its actual CR...)

The GTcc spreadsheet does not perform the same undercosting calculation that WOTC does. The spreadsheet performs a "2/3 rule" calculation on monsters prior to calculating their CR. A CR9 dragon in the MM would actually total up to CR18 in the spreadsheet, which would then bring it down to CR12 in the last "2/3 rule" step. (You can see this in the last couple of lines of the spreadsheet.)

So... basically... everything is exactly as I'd expect.

Wulf

P.S. Old One, drop me an email, I'll send you an update link.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Just took some time to look over the mass combat system. Wulf done good, as it's tied directly to CR/EL and the usual 1d20+X vs. DC Y system.

I would say it infinitely scales ... you can field several full armies easily as with mixed groups it pretty much boils down to "get your guys there" and "pit their EL vs. the other guy's EL". Very simple, but it makes alot of sense. How do you adjudicate fifteen flying pegusai and thirteen thri-kreen on the ground verses twenty-six Ogres? EL vs. EL throwdown.

It's nicely complicated with ground/battlefield types and conditions ... settled lands vs. entrenched areas, etc. You choose a secret strategic end and fight for it, which determines a few things about the combat at the end. You might be fighting through to break their lines of command while they're fighting to break the will of the settled peoples so they can no longer give succor to your own troops, etc.

I will say it starts to get hairy around "Magic". Magic breaks down into "well, seriously, how many people COULD he frag?" and the maximum number of affected targets then gives you a bonus on the ELvsEL throwdown. If the spells are coming from a limited resource (casters, mostly, but spell-like abilities and maybe lots of wands) then you reduce your own effective EL by using up magical resources. I have to look at it a while longer ... the simplicity is probably the best part with the magic system, but Grease is better than, say, a 9th level caster's Scorching Ray. I need to think on it as I'm trying to incorporate the BCCS magic system, which has a fully flexible area system. A 4th level caster could, say, toss down a 20' radius spell ... it's 20' ... but only does 1d4 nonlethal damage with a save for half. So then you get into determining what's an EFFECTIVE spell against what group, etc, but that's minor enough I'm not going to sweat it.

DRAGON CR: Yea, we realized that the CR on the dragon was "off" because WotC underscored dragons, which is why I wanted to see what the REAL CR of that thing was. Played intelligently, D&D dragons can seriously throw off an encounter if you don't know what the REAL CR is.

--fje

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Just took some time to look over the mass combat system. Wulf done good, as it's tied directly to CR/EL and the usual 1d20+X vs. DC Y system. Very simple, but it makes alot of sense.

Thanks.

How do you adjudicate fifteen flying pegusai and thirteen thri-kreen on the ground verses twenty-six Ogres? EL vs. EL throwdown.

Well, not exactly-- you can only strike the flying creatures if (a) they come down to attack you first or (b) you have ranged weapons.

It's nicely complicated with ground/battlefield types and conditions ... settled lands vs. entrenched areas, etc. You choose a secret strategic end and fight for it, which determines a few things about the combat at the end. You might be fighting through to break their lines of command while they're fighting to break the will of the settled peoples so they can no longer give succor to your own troops, etc.

My thanks to co-designer... Sun Tzu.

I will say it starts to get hairy around "Magic". A 4th level caster could, say, toss down a 20' radius spell ... it's 20' ... but only does 1d4 nonlethal damage with a save for half. So then you get into determining what's an EFFECTIVE spell against what group, etc, but that's minor enough I'm not going to sweat it.

Well, don't forget that you have to cast spell levels commensurate with your own EL.

DRAGON CR: Yea, we realized that the CR on the dragon was "off" because WotC underscored dragons, which is why I wanted to see what the REAL CR of that thing was. Played intelligently, D&D dragons can seriously throw off an encounter if you don't know what the REAL CR is.

Multiply by 4/3. I think that should do it.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well that raises a question:

If we have a mixed group of Flying and Nonflying creatures in one group and no flying creatures in the OTHER group can the two groups face off? My assumption was that since all special abilities get rounded into the Battle Rating system that you'd just fight as usual.

Of course the SMART thing to do would be to scale back to smaller groups so the fliers could have their own unit, but for the sake of argument ...

--fje

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Well, given your example, unless the Pegasi have bows or plan on letting the Thri-Kreen get munched on the ground, they would have to come down into melee range to fight those ogres... so, in that case, I don't see why there would be a problem -- some pegasi are gonna have to die.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well that raises a question:

If we have a mixed group of Flying and Nonflying creatures in one group and no flying creatures in the OTHER group can the two groups face off? My assumption was that since all special abilities get rounded into the Battle Rating system that you'd just fight as usual.

Mixed units don't get their tactical abilities. If the pegasi are going to help the thri-kreen, they can't fly.

So, yes, it would be a straight EL vs. EL fight.

Of course the SMART thing to do would be to scale back to smaller groups so the fliers could have their own unit, but for the sake of argument ...

That's right.

Of course, you could always mount the thri-kreen ON the pegasi, then they'd be a dedicated unit-- flying AND cavalry.


Wulf