[Grim Tales] CR calculator match MM?
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HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I'm finding it up and down on the MM in the few cases I've made cognates from the MM for my own game.
Like: I wanted to create a "Ghoul Hound" based on some prehistoric scavenger dogs. I decided to start with the "Riding Dog" from the MM, which is CR 1. It statted out around CR 2/3. So I added and subtracted and got what I wanted at CR 1.
I recently inputted a dragon that WotC put at CR 9 and GT said it was CR 12.
In both cases, I'd say the GT rating was more accurate. The Riding Dog wasn't worth a CR 1 and the CR 9 dragon beat down 3 8th level D&D PCs before we could drop it below three digit HP.
I've built a few fey and found them to be somewhat equal to the ones in the DMG, specifically Dryads. I think the Dryad was spot-on, if I remember correctly.
--fje
Like: I wanted to create a "Ghoul Hound" based on some prehistoric scavenger dogs. I decided to start with the "Riding Dog" from the MM, which is CR 1. It statted out around CR 2/3. So I added and subtracted and got what I wanted at CR 1.
I recently inputted a dragon that WotC put at CR 9 and GT said it was CR 12.
In both cases, I'd say the GT rating was more accurate. The Riding Dog wasn't worth a CR 1 and the CR 9 dragon beat down 3 8th level D&D PCs before we could drop it below three digit HP.
I've built a few fey and found them to be somewhat equal to the ones in the DMG, specifically Dryads. I think the Dryad was spot-on, if I remember correctly.
--fje
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
BryonD (the programmer) and I each spot-tested it against a wide range of MM creatures and found it very accurate. For the most part the differences will show up in the rounding-off math, and at very high CRs (in the CR20 range).
A Pit Fiend, for example, clocks in at the high end of CR22. If your experience is that a party of four 20th level characters finds a single pit fiend to be "Difficult" and not "Moderate" then you will find some comfort in that CR calculation.
Ultimately, if your definition of "accurate" is "Does it match the MM exactly?" then I'd say you'll be satisfied. If your definition of "accurate" is "How well does it predict a monster's CR/EL?" then I think you'll be very satisfied.
With regard to Dragons, this is a perfect example of accuracy to WOTC vs. accuracy to actual play.
We do not continue the (in my opinion, ridiculous) tradition of WOTC in under-costing dragons in order to make them seem "tougher." This is a known and admitted bias on the part of the WOTC designers, but it defeats the purpose of the CR system-- the dragon fight ends up being tougher than expected AND the PCs get less XP for it.
If you want to calculate your dragon CR to WOTC standards, take the value shown at the bottom of the page at "Golden Rule" (cell C284) and divide it by 2.
(The next cell down, "Monster or Character" (cell 285) performs the normal 2/3 calculation here-- ignore this cell and do a 1/2 calculation instead, for Dragons.)
Wulf
A Pit Fiend, for example, clocks in at the high end of CR22. If your experience is that a party of four 20th level characters finds a single pit fiend to be "Difficult" and not "Moderate" then you will find some comfort in that CR calculation.
Ultimately, if your definition of "accurate" is "Does it match the MM exactly?" then I'd say you'll be satisfied. If your definition of "accurate" is "How well does it predict a monster's CR/EL?" then I think you'll be very satisfied.
With regard to Dragons, this is a perfect example of accuracy to WOTC vs. accuracy to actual play.
We do not continue the (in my opinion, ridiculous) tradition of WOTC in under-costing dragons in order to make them seem "tougher." This is a known and admitted bias on the part of the WOTC designers, but it defeats the purpose of the CR system-- the dragon fight ends up being tougher than expected AND the PCs get less XP for it.
If you want to calculate your dragon CR to WOTC standards, take the value shown at the bottom of the page at "Golden Rule" (cell C284) and divide it by 2.
(The next cell down, "Monster or Character" (cell 285) performs the normal 2/3 calculation here-- ignore this cell and do a 1/2 calculation instead, for Dragons.)
Wulf
BryonD
Hero
HeapThaumaturgist said:
This is my personal favorite use of this tool.
I don't get hung up looking for the "correct CR" monster I want to use.
Instead, I find a monster that fits the style I'm looking for and then tweak it to a CR I need. Obviously it has to be fairly close to keep the nature of the selected creature. But you can do a pretty good bit with it.
As far as WotC CRs, I honestly think that MM CRs are pretty good, with the exceptions Wulf noted above. Other products are more finger in the air, some are good and some are pretty much NOT.
There is something to be said for subjective assessment of CR as an art. But a fixed and reproducable system that is going to give you consistent, reliable and demonstrated accurate results is worth having.
It also answers some special case type questions. For example, what is fire immuntiy worth to a troll? Nothing in the WotC stuff gives a solid answer to that. It just GM judgement. Which is fine.
But, in the CR Calc you can take a troll, add fire immunity AND change the regen from two vulnerabilities to one and you have a "true" answer.
Last edited:
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
I will say its great for statting up those just plain STRANGE critters, as well.
For my homebrew I wanted fey to be a bit different, specifically "Faeries". I wanted those tiny little annoying flittery types, but creatures with less than one HD shouldn't really get a stack of powers.
So I made them a fey Swarm. It was very nice to be able to see and stat out that sort of thing. It gave them the HD to stack some powers on without tossing off the CR too badly and as Dim. creatures they're largely immune to weapons. Easy enough to stat out a creature with no physical attacks and spell-like abilities.
--fje
For my homebrew I wanted fey to be a bit different, specifically "Faeries". I wanted those tiny little annoying flittery types, but creatures with less than one HD shouldn't really get a stack of powers.
So I made them a fey Swarm. It was very nice to be able to see and stat out that sort of thing. It gave them the HD to stack some powers on without tossing off the CR too badly and as Dim. creatures they're largely immune to weapons. Easy enough to stat out a creature with no physical attacks and spell-like abilities.
--fje
Tav_Behemoth
First Post
Wulf Ratbane said:
Wulf, it sounds like you're talking about an Excel sheet here - how would I get a copy? I took a stab at it myself when using GT to do some CR evaluation*, but yours is no doubt superior.
* which is actually why I bought it, based on EN World buzz, and have since found it to be cool for many other reasons!
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