[Grim Tales/D20 Modern] Non Human races? How to balance it...

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Depending on whether you are using the spreadsheet or the book, you might have to double check a couple of things that Size adjustments will change. Notably that 1.4CR for Large includes +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 natural armor, -1 AC for size, -1 BAB for size.

Right, I caught that. I'm using the book as it happens. I'm still trying to get the spreadsheet to function on my Mac, but that's a separate thread.

I did notice that backing out all those modifiers gives a +0.2, btw what is left for the Large creature after those are taken out that give this +0.2? Space 10x10/reach 10, increased base damage, use of increased-size weapons without penalty. Just for my mental math, I was trying to figure the pieces.

Also please note that the cost for those 2 Hit Dice includes BAB, skill points, and 1 feat.

Yup!

If you want to use LA, which I don't recommend, use +1.

The problem with LA is that, while +1 is fair for this guy at 1st level, it's not fair at 10th level, for example.

I've noticed this unfairness. I think hammerhead mentioned one of my concerns. Your explanation is helping me wrap my mind around the "paradigm shift" (seems appropriate, but saying it outloud makes me cringe .

Fuindor got it right-- I recommend you use the full and exact CR of each character for determining XP by EL. This character's CR is 2.25. Factor that in along with the 1 CR for each of his "normal" first level buddies, and the total party CR is 5.25. This means that this party will receive fewer XP for a CR1 monster-- it's easier.

I guess the concern I had was over the ".25" part of this. In a party of four 1st level characters, this large PC bring a 2.25 CR to the party's EL in our example. In determining character XP awards, isn't the .25 irrelevent as the XP awards are granted by integer according to Table 14-4? In other words, does this Large character had .25 worth of benefits at no penalty to XP? So I am wrong in thinking that when tailoring non-human PC races, a "best practice" would be to avoid fractional CRs for PCs? Did I miss a formula for XP awards that takes PC party-CR fractions (like CR 5.25) into account? According to the tables in the book, doesn't 5.25 round down to 5?

(If you need me to explain this in greater detail-- the whole "Chi/Rho" thing-- just ask.)

I would LOVE it.

For what it is worth, I'm experimenting with some Dark Sun races. The above example would have been a half-giant. Certain features of the old half-giant I felt were not a factor on the CR calculus, like the shiftable alignment, so I excluded it from the list.

I've been trying this system out on the half-dwarf (aka Mul) and the thri-kreen, especially WotC's version of the kreen, to see how folks around the internet have done with their balancing. Some conversions have been close to the original 2nd ed in features, and other have been closer to making the race on par with "normal" races in 3e terms. Mind you, I'm experimenting with how viable it could be to play a Dark Sun-like game with Grim Tales as the toolbox for a house-system. Just so you know where I'm coming from...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I guess the concern I had was over the ".25" part of this. In a party of four 1st level characters, this large PC bring a 2.25 CR to the party's EL in our example. In determining character XP awards, isn't the .25 irrelevent as the XP awards are granted by integer according to Table 14-4? In other words, does this Large character had .25 worth of benefits at no penalty to XP? So I am wrong in thinking that when tailoring non-human PC races, a "best practice" would be to avoid fractional CRs for PCs? Did I miss a formula for XP awards that takes PC party-CR fractions (like CR 5.25) into account? According to the tables in the book, doesn't 5.25 round down to 5?

Let me just snip here and say, "Email me," and I will send you a copy of the Gamemastering PDF. It includes updates to Chapter 14 that will invalidate the Tables (over and above a very good estimate, but lacking the precision that has since been developed for the system).

It also includes an Excel spreadsheet that will show you exactly how that half-giant is going to earn XP.

Consider this my $1.95 contribution to your Dark Sun project.


Wulf

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I just got back from a rough weekend of Basic Training Orientation, and have been recovering quite slowly, but I had been meaning to say that after having gotten the Gamemaster PDF, so many issues I was confronting just disappeared.

For instance, I applied it to many thri kreen conversion out and around, and true to my suspicions that they felt over powered for their LA, the GamemasterPDF determined a different +CR. I love to have something back up my suspicions. Plus having an XP award system that works with non-equal-power PCs better than the LA system is a pleasure I'm going to be promoting to friends whereever I go.

Thanks Wulf!


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I just got back from a rough weekend of Basic Training Orientation, and have been recovering quite slowly, but I had been meaning to say that after having gotten the Gamemaster PDF, so many issues I was confronting just disappeared.

For instance, I applied it to many thri kreen conversion out and around, and true to my suspicions that they felt over powered for their LA, the GamemasterPDF determined a different +CR. I love to have something back up my suspicions. Plus having an XP award system that works with non-equal-power PCs better than the LA system is a pleasure I'm going to be promoting to friends whereever I go.

Thanks Wulf!


Regards,
Eric Anondson

Boy, that sounds almost like a review.

The kind of review that would be much appreciated if it were posted at RPGnow.

Kinda like that.

Glad it worked for you. You are using the new spreadsheet I sent you though, right? With the LA/XP fix?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Boy, that sounds almost like a review.

The kind of review that would be much appreciated if it were posted at RPGnow.

Kinda like that.

Heh! I always felt I couldn't write reviews with a suficiently unbiased eye that I personally prefer in reviews, and that I always end up missing something critical where. My ability at analysis of a greater scheme behind ideas is rather poor, and is something I almost always come to understand until after a seminar-like discussion. I'll try my best at coming up with something appropriate, if my college assignment schedule gives the openings.

Glad it worked for you. You are using the new spreadsheet I sent you though, right? With the LA/XP fix?

If you remember in my reply, I mentioned that I said that after reading enough of the praise about this $1.95 file that I figured it certainly had to be worth a good look, and at that price (about what I pay for for bottle of Coke and two candy bars during one average day of classes!) I couldn't complain. So I took the leap and bought it even before I checked my inbox.

Something strange about this. It doesn't look like I have received the file you sent. I checked my inboxes and the spam filters at my email provider, and I haven't yet seen it arrive then or yet. I thought that maybe it was still in-transit and might be bouncing around the net like can rarely happen. Did you send it to the same email address of mine you have corresponded to?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sent again.

And by "again" I mean, "For the first time, cause I'm an idiot."

I had sent you a free link to the old download before-- obviously, not the same thing.

This spreadsheet has the fix and was cleaned up nice and purdy by Kirin Tor.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

And I got it, many thanks!

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Hey Wulf, can I get that sheet/link too please?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hey Wulf, can I get that sheet/link too please?

Email. (EDIT) me.