[Grim Tales] Mass Combat Questions

[Drew]

I played through a small sample battle last night. I wish I could say it was awesome, but I was a little underwhelmed. Here are my thoughts a day later:

Positive

BR system: My favorite part of this ruleset is the BR system. I think the conversion of a group's CR into a generic number showing how powerful and effictive they are is genious. When I'm running a D&D mass combat, I'm not interested in going into the fine detail of warband building that other mass systems offer. I don't want special rules for regeneration, confusion gazes, ad infinitum... The BR rating is a great abstraction. A unit of trolls is tough because of their strength, reach, and regeneration. A unit of knights is tough because of training, armor, and weaponry. Both translated into roughly the same BR.

Negative

Lack of Tactics: I understand that this is meant to be a quick and abstract system, but it seemed to be that battle tactics were pretty much non existant in this rules set. Troops in tight formation have a facing or sorts, but its only important during movement. As stated above, there is no tactical advantage to storming an enemy unit from behind. While I'm not looking for Advanced Squad Leader or anything, I can't help but wonder what the point is of using minis and a battle mat when there is no facing, no flanking, etc. I was just wandering willy-nilly around the battle mat, disengaging with the enemy whenever it suited me. It just didn't feel like a battle to me. I also found the formation rules somewhat lacking. There wasn't much in-game difference between having a tight formation and a goup of skirmishers. Yes, there is a difference, but its pretty much just movement. It also seemed strange that I was worrying about troop formations at all considering the lack of flanking rules. I'm not looking for a lot of tactical detail, but there is no reason to make the Mass Combat system less tactical than the core combat system.

Poor Rule Info: I know we're just dealing with a quick rules set, and that it only cost $2...but there were a few things that I didn't get. When, for example, do I make command checks? Do I do it whenever the unit needs to do something that would require a command check? What happens if my commander gets killed or otherwise incapacitated? I'm not expecting layers of detail here, but it seems like these sorts of questions would have come up while this was being written. I really like what was there, but I found I had more questions that I expected.

I would also have like to see clearer rules on ending a battle. As written, there are no rules for retreating from the battlefield if you're using a battlemat. You can just move off the battle mat, but on a small enough scale you're still logically within the reach of pursuing troops. Without rules to arbitrate things, it comes down to an agreement between the players or a decision from the DM.

Conclusion
I really wanted to be able to grab this simple little system and adapt it as my de facto mass combat rules. It looks like I'll have to put some work into it myself if I want to keep using it. I'll probably take the BR system and build something just a little more involved and tactical and see how it turns out.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Positive

BR system: My favorite part of this ruleset is the BR system. I think the conversion of a group's CR into a generic number showing how powerful and effictive they are is genious. When I'm running a D&D mass combat, I'm not interested in going into the fine detail of warband building that other mass systems offer. I don't want special rules for regeneration, confusion gazes, ad infinitum... The BR rating is a great abstraction. A unit of trolls is tough because of their strength, reach, and regeneration. A unit of knights is tough because of training, armor, and weaponry. Both translated into roughly the same BR.

Well, so far so good. If I got you that far, we're in good shape. You've actually passed the part that most folks quibble over.

Negative

I also found the formation rules somewhat lacking. There wasn't much in-game difference between having a tight formation and a goup of skirmishers. Yes, there is a difference, but its pretty much just movement. It also seemed strange that I was worrying about troop formations at all considering the lack of flanking rules.

Troop formation and flanking are both accounted for. Please read my second post above. If your formation is more open, more of the enemy can "fill in" to your unit during melee, thereby flanking on an individual level.

Formation also applies to movement as well as defense against ranged attacks and area of effect attacks.

I'm not looking for a lot of tactical detail, but there is no reason to make the Mass Combat system less tactical than the core combat system.

Not to quibble with you, but yes, there are reasons to make it less tactical than the core combat system, as the core system accounts for combat on an individual scale. There are many modifiers that apply on an individual level that would rarely apply to an entire unit.

Even rarer that such a modifier could be so sweeping as to warrant a bonus under this EL based system. A +1 bonus on an individual scale means next to nothing when scaled up to the EL-based system.

When, for example, do I make command checks? Do I do it whenever the unit needs to do something that would require a command check? What happens if my commander gets killed or otherwise incapacitated? I'm not expecting layers of detail here, but it seems like these sorts of questions would have come up while this was being written. I really like what was there, but I found I had more questions that I expected.

There's no substitute for reading the rules you have.

When Command checks are called for, the rules tell you. A quick scan/sampling:

1) Initiative at the start of battle
2) Getting your unit to Run
3) Keeping your unit in formation after your unit makes a melee attack
4) Changing formation
5) Forming a detachment
6) Outmaneuver the opponent (battles without maps)
7) Retreat (battles without maps)
8) Morale (at 50% and 25% of unit strength)
9) Keeping cavalry in formation after a charge
10) Keeping a phalanx in formation after an attack
11) various Heroic Actions

That seems like a pretty damn good sampling to me. (But hey, I'm biased.)

I would also have like to see clearer rules on ending a battle. As written, there are no rules for retreating from the battlefield if you're using a battlemat. You can just move off the battle mat, but on a small enough scale you're still logically within the reach of pursuing troops.

There's no tactical advantage to pursuing fleeing troops off the map. They're as good as dead unless their side wins the battle-- scattered. Yes, they're still logically within reach of pursuing troops, they as they are already hors de combat there's no point to chasing them. They've left the battlefield and they aren't coming back.

If you feel better about it, you can assume they are literally killed as they flee the map.

Conclusion
I really wanted to be able to grab this simple little system and adapt it as my de facto mass combat rules. It looks like I'll have to put some work into it myself if I want to keep using it. I'll probably take the BR system and build something just a little more involved and tactical and see how it turns out.

Good luck! But I do suggest re-reading what you've got first...

I appreciate the feedback very much and will work to make the document clearer based on feedback like yours.


Wulf

 

[Drew]

Its very nice to have nearly instant access to the designer. I admit that I didn't give the document the kind of deep reading that I would have like to prior to testing...which is why I'll give it another try or two before I dismiss it.

Not to quibble with you, but yes, there are reasons to make it less tactical than the core combat system, as the core system accounts for combat on an individual scale.

Isn't there something to be said for at least giving a nod toward real world battle tactics, though? Catching an enemy unit from the flank or the rear is often devastating in a real battle. Why no real benefit in this system?

What about surrounding an enemy with two units in a pincher manuever? As I read it, they can simply move away to the side without too much hassle. Doesn't that seem a little too fast and loose?

I mean, am I missing something? Because, as I said, I LOVE the concept behind BR. I really want to find a good, simple mass combat system for my home games.

I also note there are no rules for the range of missile weapons in the mass combat scale. Should I modify the BR if I'm shooting foes at, say long range?

I'll be sure to post again once I've run one or two more battles. Thanks in advance for your rapid and insightful replies.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Isn't there something to be said for at least giving a nod toward real world battle tactics, though?[\quote]

Sure. See my other post above for a suggestion.

Catching an enemy unit from the flank or the rear is often devastating in a real battle. Why no real benefit in this system?

As long as the benefit is scaled properly for the system, no problem.

What about surrounding an enemy with two units in a pincher manuever? As I read it, they can simply move away to the side without too much hassle. Doesn't that seem a little too fast and loose?

Depending on what formation they are in, yes they can. But they'd have to be in open formation to do that-- otherwise they can only move forward in a straight line.

And units in open formation are at a disadvantage in melee combat-- opponents get a +1 bonus to their attack roll if the unit is in open formation. That is your flanking bonus. What that means is that your formation is so loose that enemy combatants are actually able to penetrate into your ranks so that, yes, on an individual level, they are flanking.

I mean, am I missing something?

Well, not to be pissy, but probably yes you are. I'm not error-proof, but in this case you just haven't read deeply enough (or absorbed deeply enough).

Because, as I said, I LOVE the concept behind BR. I really want to find a good, simple mass combat system for my home games.

I am glad you like it. I hope it works for you. I know the system has weaknesses but you haven't hit on any of my own pet peeves yet.

I also note there are no rules for the range of missile weapons in the mass combat scale. Should I modify the BR if I'm shooting foes at, say long range?

Only if you want more granularity and more modifiers to keep track of. I would keep track of maximum range and, based on your map scale, just make sure that ranged attackers don't attack outside that range (which is pretty much what's written in the PDF).

I'll be sure to post again once I've run one or two more battles. Thanks in advance for your rapid and insightful replies.

No problem, I really, really enjoy it. Best part of the job is talking to people who use your stuff.

One last thing: If you're running test battles of melee unit against melee units, I wouldn't expect them to get a lot more exciting. Build up a variety of units to test-- ranged, flying, phalanxes, skirmishers, breath weapons, cavalry, etc.

Wulf

 

[Brund the Decrepit]

Where to Download?

Hello, I am very interested in obtaining a PDF copy of the Mass Combat rules and I was wondering where would be the best place to purchase a copy from.

-Brund

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hello, I am very interested in obtaining a PDF copy of the Mass Combat rules and I was wondering where would be the best place to purchase a copy from.

-Brund

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4037&Src=EnWorld

 

[Brund the Decrepit]

Thanks much Wulf!




-Brund