[Grim Tales] Spell lists?

[Wrathamon]

Okay, so far here are the spells I have removed

Magic Missle
Dismissal
Plane Shift
Freedom of Movement
True Seeing
Dispel Evil/Good
Banishment
Refuge
Cloak of Chaos
Astral Projection
Order's Wrath
Word of Recall
Dictum
Resurrection
Soul Bind
Gate
Reincarnate
Tree Stride
Transport via Plants
Rope Trick
Clone
Astral Projection
Leomund's Secret Chest
Teleport
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Maze
Etherealness
Refuge
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Teleport Circle
True Strike
Vanish
Ethereal Jaunt
Contact Other Plane
Lesser Planar Binding,
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Lesser Planar Ally
Planar Ally
Greater Planar Ally

I am going to remove any any Levitation/fly type spells, but to Fly requires wings (must change into bird shape that sort of thing), any Force Field type spells, all of the Raise Dead type spells are going to be quests/rituals.

All "flashy" damage type spells are going to have a negative side effect that I am working on. Basically, you take a risk using them. Healing spells will have a similiar effect.


How is this looking? any other suggestions?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

How is this looking? any other suggestions?

You're going about it the complete wrong way.

Don't waste your time removing spells from the spell list.

Figure out what spells you want to include and find ways for the PCs to learn them.

Seriously. Stop what you are doing and reverse your thinking.


Wulf

 

[GlassJaw]

Seriously. Stop what you are doing and reverse your thinking.

Listen to Wulf's blunt and unsubtle advice. He speaks the truth.

Learning a spell in a GT campaign should be an accomplishment and the players should never expect that learning new spells be automatic. The spells should drive the characters, not vice versa. When you feel it's time to introduce a new spell into the campaign, go for it. Remember, taking the magical talents does not automatically grant new spells. So the concept of a spell "list" is pretty opposite to the GT feel.

I would recommend making a very general list of spells that might be appropriate depending on the world you are creating. Introduce them slowly and see how things go.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I would recommend making a very general list of spells that might be appropriate depending on the world you are creating. Introduce them slowly and see how things go.

I wouldn't even go that far.

Introduce the spells you want in your campaign that drive the story you want to tell-- a handful of spells at a time.

Put some kind of magic spellbook in a treasure horde with a half dozen or fewer spells in it and let the PCs worry about whether or not they want to try to learn any of them.


Wulf

 

[Wrathamon]

Yah my players wont go with that... it is too opposite the way they think.

They want to plan ahead and know what they can or cant have.

maybe next game I can "break" them of those constraints but this one they want boundaries.

They seriously need baby steps or else I am stuck playing core D&D for life or find another group... which I dont want to do.

Finding arcane spells works for treasure troves and such but Divine casters dont find spells they pray for them, so they need to have some idea of what they pray for or else they feel like I am making their characters for them by going here is spell you got. I need to be able to give them choices and its easier to show spells we arent using then all the spells we are.

Maybe GT isnt for my players and I will have to use another system. Oh well it looked cool and I was glad when I finally got it from Amazon.

Edit: these guys plan their characters out from 1st to 20th level and have insane backstories and are extremely specialized and know what they want to play, because they need to "get into character" they are a strange mix of hardcore roleplayers and power gamers mixed into one... it is really scary at times. Getting them to play anything other than straight D&D was a chore to even get them to say "yah lets try another take on the same core system and see how it plays". They want to see what they can or cant do, and not knowing what spells they will have access to was one of the big... "eh not sure I want to play this". So that is why I was coming up with a way to go okay here are the spells you are not going to see during this game, but you will see these. Telling them to think and play a specific way, is just going to alienate them... sorta like you did me.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Yah my players wont go with that... it is too opposite the way they think.

Tough!

They want to plan ahead and know what they can or cant have.

"You can't have anything. Everything is off the table until I choose to put it on the table."

So I added a change to learning a spell with self practice and they spend a small amount of XP per spell level to try and learn the spell.

It doesn't really sound to me like you (or your players) want a low magic game.

This should work well with divine casters. I mean they dont find spells they pray for them, so they need to have some idea of what they pray for or else they feel like I am making their characters for them by going here is spell you got.

Let divine casters choose 1 or 2 domains (as normal) and then give them "free" access to the spell on their domain list only.

I need to be able to give them choices and its easier to show spells we arent using then all the spells we are.

But here is the choice you are really offering them: "Do you want to play a low magic game or not?"

If they want a low magic game, then they absolutely should not sit down to play with any expectation that, "I'm gonna be a wizard!"

So-- the set up is this:

1) Arcane casters, get nothing. You're a 1st level character. You believe that magic exists, you've heard tales of it, but you know nothing. Should you be so fortunate as to uncover some hidden text with this arcane knowledge, you may be able to study it.

2) Divine casters, who start as acolytes in the church at 1st level, also have no knowledge of spells. But you can tell them, in advance, that the church has "secret mysteries" that they may be taught, upon making it to 3rd level and choosing to be fully indoctrinated into the church (ie, taking the Magical Adept: divine Talent). At that point they'll get two spells, one from each domain, and each time they gain a caster level, they'll add the next spell on the domain list. Beyond that, again, there may be other spells out there to learn, but the PC is on his own for that.

3) Wild adepts... heh heh. There may be demons and devils willing to trade knowledge of spells for certain favors and agreements. Who knows?



Wulf

 

[Wrathamon]

I want to run and play a low magic game... my players are not sure about it and want to know waht they can or cant do.

telling them its a mystery wont work

They want options, not you never knows.

They dont care if they cant cast fireball or teleport they just want to know if they become a priest of "insert god x here" that they have an idea of what spells they may potential have access to so they know what to expect.

They are not into the diving off a cliff for the trill of it. This guys are programmers, tech writers and engineers... they like boundaries of knowing what they can and cant do.


The Black Company and Midnight both have spell lists that they can look at and munch on and feel satisfied. "Okay if I try and go a certain route I know what to expect".

These aren't super low magic campaigns but they arent typical D&D either.

I like the rule system in GT over the others which is why I wanted to use it.

 

[Fenris]

Wrathamon,
It's easy. Tell them that this is a no-magic world. Period. Let them make their characters up, with no intention of ever becoming a spell caster. Then you drop the arcane tome in their lap or better yet as Wulf has said let them release a demon etc who can "gift" them with some talent. They can then say no I don't want to learn, it isn't in my "horribly detailed, and excruciatingly thought-out advancement plan". Or they can they decide to explore this new world that has opened up. They do know that there aren't magic items right?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I feel your pain, Wrathamon. The group I play with is, for the most part, very reluctant to try new things outside of D&D and the main reason is that they cannot plan where they are going. Our last campaign, on the very first day, one of the guys explained to me what class levels he was going to take from 1st thru 7th, followed by a discussion of whether he was going to take 3 or 4 levels of a particular prestige class... of course, this is the same guys who responds to discussions of playing something besides D&D with: "Have fun and let me know when you start a new D&D game." But the other players are clustered towards that end of the spectrum, as well. They have all played D20 Modern, however, so Grim Tales is not out of the question.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

How many spells did you foresee them having? I suppose you could always say something like 'You could potentially have access to all spells in the 'Illusion' school' or 'Only spells with a [fire] type' and then only let them find those spells that meet the criteria and that you want them to have.

If they are going to insist that they have to know exactly what spells they will have at any given level from 1st to 20th, then Grim Tales isn't something they are going to be happy with. OTOH, neither would D&D, since there is no guarantee that a wizard will get any spell he wants just cause its in the book.