Guilds, Economics, Ships, Trade by Land and Sea!

[SHARK]

Greetings!

How developed of an economy do you use in your games? Have you worked out books of detail on coinage systems, exchange rates, resources, detailed trade relationships, or is it just sort of handwaved?

I think that having a fairly detailed section on guilds and economics can be very useful. For example, knowing the trade realtionships and the exchange values, and having some sections that detail how much things are valued, and by who, can help a Game Master when running a game where the party is in a ship at sea, and raiding, and they come across a merchant ship that they capture. The merchant ship is full of leapard furs, ten cases of exotic perfume, and 12 tons of finely crafted furniture made out of Teak and Mahogany wood. The ship that the players captured is 220 miles away from the city of Spearmint, which is especially fond of the perfume, while 385 miles away is the city of Blackberry, and they are known to especially value the fine exotic furniture.

Obviously, having some knowledge of guilds, import duties, exchange rates, values, and coinage will prove useful in such situations, and potentially even inspire various kinds of adventures, based on pursuing or working for some trade or merchant interest. The possibilities are quite diverse, and can offer some very different kinds of adventuring beyond dungeon raiding and hack and slash.

What do you think?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[solous]

Greetings SHARK...

Once again an interesting topic...

From my point of view, having a detailed understanding of how your world' s economy works is a definite plus regarding its consistency and verisimilitude.

Of course it's not necessary for every kind of game/player, but if you are to play a long campaign, with PC becoming more and more involved with the world they live in, having more influence/reputation, the economy aspect can become increasingly important.

In my campaign, players tend to try to establish an economic base for themselves after a few levels, and they often try to invest in/create varied ventures (be it a bordello, a merchant officine, etc...) before going all the way to castle/kingdom/empire....
I consider it a great boon for the DM, as it indeed offers many opportunities for main adventures or kinda thickening the plot.

Generally, I consider the main exports/imports for each country,
take into account the political powers and current relationships between states, and so on. I think it's mostly interesting on a macro economic level, and with this foundation is sound, I should be pretty much confident when i have to rule about some micro-economic question my players are asking about...

My thoughts for the moment.....

P.S : As you have probably guessed, english is not my native language, so please bear with me as I try to express myself...

 

[Eosin the Red]

Welcome back SHARK,

I use alot of mercentile info in my game and have much of it worked out. Birthright has gotten me to think about guild activity on a whole new level of game interest (I am a guilder in a PbeM right now ...Spider River Traders). Just the mention of injecting trade issues into the game brings the whole D&D monetary system to the forefront. I have found it woefully inadequete.

I have a campaign in the planning stages where the bad guy is doing bad stuff for money of all the crazy reasons. It did not dawn on me until I was working on it that this has to be one of the most under utilized motivators in published gaming supplements.

 

[ashockney]

Handwave for two primary reasons...

1) Time.

With all the time spent detailing out an actual adventure, building it suitably to challenge the PC's, developing stories, roleplaying, and NPC's to go with it, there's just not enough time to fully flesh out a economy. I usually address "guilds" but more from the perspective of politics and motivations of major powers in an area.

2) Complexity.

The economics are too complex. Keeping in mind that the game is based on getting most of your money from "loot" or "long lost or buried treasures" it doesn't exactly lend itself to a typical economic system that any player is used to. I liked what Gary Gygax tried to do in his Dangerous Journeys game years ago calling the basic unit of currency (BUC for short) approximately the equivalent of $1. Then simply translate all prices/values into modern day pricing. Granted, it was a little less "midevil" in feel, but it was simple, and players grasped it quickly.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

How developed of an economy do you use in your games? Have you worked out books of detail on coinage systems, exchange rates, resources, detailed trade relationships, or is it just sort of handwaved?

My current group could not care less- so I don't bother with such things. I a merchant spelljamming campeign I ran in college I laid down the framework for an economic system between the planets/spheres. Their trade mostly centered on wine- so I only developed that aspect of it.

It is fun if you and/or your players are fans of business. If the players are not fans though, then it will possibly just be boring to them.

SD

 

[Arnwyn]

Well, lookee here - something I've been whining and complaining about for years now.

I'm very disappointed that no publisher has stepped to the plate and created a detailed economic system that the PCs can interact with. The examples in your original post were great, and there are many more. For example, the PCs buy a ship so they can travel between adventure locations quickly. What if they want to haul some cargo along with them since they are going to X location anyways. How much cargo? What will it cost? What can they sell it for? How much more will they make if it's a major import where they're going? What if someone has a high Bluff score (for haggling)? Etc. The same thing can go for PCs buying inns. How much will staff cost? How much will they make?

I've cobbled together a limited trading system when I have some spare time (ie. a very rare opportunity) using stuff from Birthright and a Dragon article called "Ill Gotten Gains" - but a detailed economic system that the PCs can interact with during their adventures is something I'd pay LOTS OF MONEY for.

[As a quick pimp, I see that MEG has a book coming out relating to Guilds and how the PCs can interact with them. A step in the right direction, I think.]

 

[Fenes 2]

Usually I just wing it. If the PCs just get the load back to town they can get x gold out of it. If they take the time to feel out the market, so to speak, or I just feel like getting a little subplot out of it we play out the whole deal.
Trading usually is just the background for adventures. Even if I had a PC in the campaign that was a trader I would concentrate on the aspects of the business that impact all the PCs - adventures, plots etc, and not economic simulation.

 

[Desdichado]

Typically I do the following for any given homebrew:

• Give each region a short list of exports and imports. High level stuff for the beginning of the campaign.
• For the region in which the campaign actually starts (or takes place) I put in lots more details, including trade guilds or powerful merchants, trade routes, typical trading partners, etc.
• When applicable, I design some detail around traders from other regions that the PCs might bump into as their doing their business.
• Rarely do I expand much beyond that until needed, unless I really get an interest in exploring another locale of the setting. I'm an on-again, off-again believer in Ray Winnenger's "Dungeoncraft" strategy of not creating more than you have to until you have to, unless I'm really interested in creating those details, of course.

For currency and exchange rates, etc. I use a more primitive rather than modern system. Currency actually is the value, rather than merely representing stored value in the Federal Reserve, as our money does, so exchange rates have to do with what one region mints -- are their coins smaller or larger, what's the purity of the metal like, etc. In addition, careful folks have to watch out for shaved coins and the like -- that's the only way a currency can devalue. Little scales are invaluable to folks who want to make sure they're not ripped off in my settings.

 

[Tonguez]

I don't use coinage at all. IMC the culture still uses a system of Barter and gift exchange. Instead wealth is a measure of productivity and the number of people a person can call on to procure goods and services (ie their 'Faction')

Each PC gets faction points (based on Cha) which they can then apply to things like generating NPCs (eg an Expert 'costs' 20 FP and becomes 'Uncle Teua the Gardner with +5 ranks in Horticulture)

I also have a system for Harvesting Resources (every district is given a list of available resources and a fertility score (to determine yeild per Turn). These resources can be harvested using Faction members (1 FP = 1 Unskilled Labourer) with a DC set and a check made to see whether the harvest was successful or not (Here Uncle Teua's +5 ranks is added to the Harvest Gardens check)

Trade is treated as another Resource that can be harvested through active use (ie applying faction members to the task of Trading) with PCs actually going out and doing the adventure based on the underlying resource management (eg to confirm a Trade route) the PCs would have to play out the journey to their desired market and the negotiations required to establish the trade route. However once inb place they could harvest it without actively 'playing it out in game' and instead let it happen while they are off killing the Wyvern that has been eating the tribes hunting parties.

 

[seasong]

Personally, I always start with commonfolk: how much excess they produce, how many of them have to band together to survive, what resources are available to them in a given region. This doesn't usually take long - I usually have a pretty good idea of these numbers already, based on history and basic decisions.

Then I decide how much land/resources are usable (usually 25% to 60% of the land), and multiply the population by that, to find out how many people are there.

Then I see what the excess (figured out above) will buy them. In D&D, it will usually pay for fighters (who don't produce anything, but defend the culture against the outside) and agricultural clerics (who increase the excess). I spend some time figuring out how much the clerics impact things, and then I see what that buys them. Usually after 3-4 iterations, it levels out - buying more clerics/wizards/what-have-you doesn't actually affect production, and there are enough fighter types to defend against typical threats.

Then I figure out how many non-producing folk the excess can support and take 1/3 that number as the primary population center. The next largest population center is half the size of the first; the next is 1/3 the size of the first; and so on. When it drops below 1,000 in a center, I stop.

Then I start looking at types of economy (pure capitalist, phoenician capitalist, feudal, imperial bureaucracy, etc.) at the city level, and start working out what impact that has on the efficiency of trade. Finally, I go back to the commonfolk, to see how all of this affects their life style. Then I make the PCs commonfolk, and away we go!

Some examples of special cases:

1. Trade Survival. Many places survive almost purely on trade. The land produces one thing (wine) very well, so they make wine and trade it for life necessities. That's fine - I work out how valuable wine is compared to wheat & cattle, and treat the land as highly efficient wheat+cattle with a time delay (but I keep in mind that trade routes closing are bad). Note that specialization is very efficient. If multiple places specialize and then trade with each other, each tends to get everything for cheaper than if they produced it themselves... and consequently, the excess is much higher.

2. Living On Magic. Under some systems, magic is actually more efficient at food production than agriculture, and takes up considerably less space (in terms of shops, mage towers, etc.). This tends to result in vast urban environments, but otherwise follows the rules outlined above fairly nicely.

3. Plant Growth can NOT be overlooked in D&D. Holy schmoo, but the numbers get big, fast.