Guilds, Economics, Ships, Trade by Land and Sea!

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Guilds, Economics, Ships, Trade by Land and Sea!

As some above posters have mentioned, most players could really care less about the world's economy.

The players may not care about the world's economy, but they certainly care about their characters' small sliver of it. Historically, many adventurers were risk-taking explorers, bringing back exotic goods from far-away lands.

However, I happen to have an MBA from a top business school, and have tried to make logical economics part of our campaign world.

Modern business theories and economic theories are predicated on a free market with little "friction" -- pretty much the opposite of a medieval economy composed of guilds with monopoly power, cities without passable roads between them, etc.

Coinage played a key part of a recent module....There was a counterfeiting scheme required the new ruler to withdraw all old coinage, check the old coins for authenticity, and then exchange them for new coinage (with a small processing fee).

How do you mass-counterfeit silver coins in a quasi-medieval world? Magic?

 

[Silver Moon]

Re: Re: Re: Guilds, Economics, Ships, Trade by Land and Sea!

How do you mass-counterfeit silver coins in a quasi-medieval world? Magic?

You mint coins that resemble the Kingdom's gold and platinum currency, but made out of copper, and then cover them with a coating of real gold or platinum. The real metal for the heavy plating will cost you about 20% of each coin's true value if it had been solid, but an 80% profit still makes this a very viable scheme.

And regarding your other points, I really don't want to get into a hot debate about economic history and theories, however it should be noted that: (1) "Modern" economic theories are not all derived from the capitalist ideas of Adam Smith, many being rooting in communal and agricultural societies; (2) The Medieval world was not totally devoid of capitalism; (3) Nowhere is it written that our fantasy worlds have to be 100% historically based, given the various humanoid races, mythical creatures, and functional magic that exists in them.

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Guilds, Economics, Ships, Trade by Land and Sea!

You mint coins that resemble the Kingdom's gold and platinum currency, but made out of copper, and then cover them with a coating of real gold or platinum. The real metal for the heavy plating will cost you about 20% of each coin's true value if it had been solid, but an 80% profit still makes this a very viable scheme.

And regarding your other points, I really don't want to get into a hot debate about economic history and theories, however it should be noted that: (1) "Modern" economic theories are not all derived from the capitalist ideas of Adam Smith, many being rooting in communal and agricultural societies; (2) The Medieval world was not totally devoid of capitalism; (3) Nowhere is it written that our fantasy worlds have to be 100% historically based, given the various humanoid races, mythical creatures, and functional magic that exists in them.

If im remembering properly there even used to be a group of men who would go around the kingdom (i think it was england, i wish i could remember better), melt down the coinage and perform purity tests to try and find if, and where, impure coinage was curculating. There were some very creative people back then, just as there are now.

joe b.

 

[David Argall]

official counterfeiting

"You mint coins that resemble the Kingdom's gold and platinum currency, but made out of copper, and then cover them with a coating of real gold or platinum. The real metal for the heavy plating will cost you about 20% of each coin's true value if it had been solid, but an 80% profit still makes this a very viable scheme."

All too often, this was what the king himself did. All the coins from the previous regime were called in, a varying amount of alloy was added, and the new coins were handed out, at a nice profit for his majesty, not to mention he charged people for ripping them off.
Needless to say, people were often reluctant to turn in old coins and they often circulated in preference to the official currency, so the "counterfeit" currency the king was trying to hunt down was sometimes of superior value to the official currency. The king was just as upset about coins that had too much gold as too little.

 

[mythusmage]

If you really want to complicate your players' lives, introduce inflation. Fluctuating exchange rates, recessions, depressions, booms and busts, and rampant currency speculation all add to the fun.

Scenario: The party finds a chest full of rare copper coins. About 1,000 of them. The last such coin (one of six known to exist in the whole world) sold on the open market went for 100 gold. Guess what the players are going to be thinking...

Ask yourselves, will 1,000 rare coins hold the same value as 6 rare coins?

Now, for an example of a different exchange rate, find yourself a copy of A Mighty Fortress (an "historical" campaign setting for D&D2e, set in the Europe of the Thirty Years War). It's a simplifed version of the actual exchange rates used at the time.

In my own (in construction) setting coin value is based on weight. With an often substantial difference between currency value and trade value. (For instance, a one pound copper bar (trade item) can usually be bought with a one ounce copper coin (currency).)

But, not all coins are made equal, with coins from countries with a bad reputation having a lower value in other lands. By the same token, currency from a realm with a good reputation (at least where its money is concerned) can often buy more in other countries than the local coinage.

Finally, for those of you who remember the M:TG craze of years ago, back in the late 17th century there was something of a craze for Chinese porcelin. That is, china made in China. Sometimes the stuff was valued at its weight in gold. The good stuff was worth more. So pirates would pass up gold laden treasure ships and hit merchantmen carrying cargo from the land of Cathay. Then the market fell out. Things Chinese became passe.

Scenario: The party finds 3 chess sets carved entirely from Brightstar Wood. Back home there is something of a Brightstar Wood craze -the stuff is selling at an average price of 5 ounces of gold per ounce of wood. They now have (at 10 pounds per set) thirty pounds of Brightstar Wood. Will the craze continue long enough for them to get the sets back home and sold?

(True Story: I sold the M:TG cards I'd bought for about $20 for a price of $200 wholesale. By the time the buyer'd paid me in full (which he was honest enough to do) those same cards had a retail value of about $50.)

More to come, but first I have to compose it.

 

[Azure Trance]

MythusMages Alternate Currency Thread:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34186

 

[La Bete]

Greetings SHARK.

While I can certainly understand the reasons why some people 'handwave' economics, I feel that having at least some elements of it in a game can help with that game's internal consistency.

For example - say a party has been hired as caravan guards (a common D&D cliche). While the details of this can be handwaved away "its ahhh.. valuable.. umm... silks! yeah, silks - going to that city on the map over there", the 'Why' factor can really add to a game's feel -

Why is this cargo here
Why is it going there
why do the bandits want it
why are the owners paying $$$ to keep it
why is it going by land
etc. etc.

Even fleshing out relatively minor elements of this (and it is a cliche after all) can lead the party onto some interesting adventures - say the bandits are in the pay of a count who is trying to get a monopoly on that silk, or say that the merchant running the caravan is sending it overland, as he is trying to avoid taxes, etc.

Additionally, trade goods are an excellent way of rewarding players - and a little more interesting. The cargo Shark describes is a bit more exotic than "100PP, 1500GP, 3000SP, and a gem worth 50GP", is it not?

Ditto different currencies. I have managed to stamp out the phrase "gold pieces" in my game, and it is the better for it. Having differing, or ancient currencies around make the players Think about the world in which the coins are in rather than as abstracts.


Obligatory pimp of my campaign - the players use all of this IMC and more. They have dabbled in multiplanar arms trading, and are currently trying to track down who raided a caravan full of luxury goods fresh through a worldgate from Faerun.

(of course if you prefer to abstract all of the above out, more power to you - YMM(apd)V )

Yours,

La Bete

 

[willpax]

I try to develop the economics as part of the fleshing out of society (as a good materialist, I think how people make a living is central to what kind of lives they live). I have economic centers, countries with varying attitudes toward trade, differing material resources, and places that are so backward that they can't take advantage of all the resources they have.

One big factor in my homebrew is a lack of large domesticated animals suited for long distance travel or hauling (no cows or horses). This makes water routes incredibly important to the economy of my world, and means that one does not have to travel too many days out to get to really isolated areas.

Like in early medieval Europe, travel is somewhat dangerous and always expensive. This drag on trade keeps the whole economy less that vibrant, although a sea-faring land to the south is a regional power with an expansionist colonization and trade policy (similar to Phonecian or Hellenistic trade). Similarly, there is a great river in the north that, although part of it is virtually deserted because of the dragons that demand hefty tolls along that stretch of the river, does form the center of the northern economy.

The players are from a truly depressed area of small fiefdoms that spend most of their efforts mobilizing for war; consequently, the areas are poorly developed. The main exports are cotton, corn and "truck" (vegetables and fruits) that are shipped upriver to more economically vibrant areas.

The players visited the great city, and discovered: (1) most thought them unfashionable, slightly dangerous hicks; (2) their money had to be changed into the local currency at a very unfavorable rate; (3) prices in the big city were much more expensive, but they had never seen such a selection of things to buy.

They have resorted to using magic (rare in this world) to aid them in various gambling schemes to earn money, although some of the local powers that be are starting to get suspicious. . .

 

[WayneLigon]

Trade offers unique opportunities to villains in my games. In the Last Lands campaign, civiliazation is spread among several large islands; a group of traders has teamed up with the sahuagin kingdom to mutual benefit: the sahuagin make sure that marked Cartel ships arrive safely to port. The Cartel faces less risk and thus gains more profit. They have also started up, though intermediaries, the concept of 'insurance' on cargos, bringing in more money. Non-Cartel vessels face the normal dangers plus they sometimes have to contend with the sahuagin. The Cartel, as part of it's bargain, 'sacrifices' one ship a year to the sahuagin, giving them the crew and passengers.

The Jewelers Guild in my Ashara campaign is the source of a lot of evil. Only the Goldsmiths Guild is richer than they, and they have plans to be number one. In the middle ages, guilds often had their own mytery cults associated with them, and I use that aspect. The Jewelers have a patron, a demon that teaches them amazing craft skills that allow them to make fine objects that command tremendous prices. Khadran gems worked by a master crafter in the guild are prized all over the world. The demon demands payment, though. Each year during the rites where new Journeymen become masters, they also 'secretly' choose three apprentices to become food/toys for the demon. The Council of Masters think the choice is secret, but really it's rigged by the Inner Circle of masters to punish political/professional rivals. The demon also makes other demands, and the Masters do what they can to appease it. Masters who displease it find that gems shatter when they work on them.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

The evil Jeweler's Guild is a super cool idea!!! Very Lankhmar.

I'm happy to say that in most cases I wing economics. Most of the sessions I run are city based these days, and since most medieval and classical cities had economic systems that were much less complex and entrenched than our own I feel liberated to do so.

Basically I will detail a few patrons, the major groups of clients, the ambitions and authorities of the lords, who pays the clerks and what their authorities and capabilities are, what goods are valued, portable, and require manufacturing, and who the captains are who can command skill and loyalty. The rest runs itself.

Now if I were running a rural medieval fantasy campaign then things would become complex.

I do tend to put a lot of detail into the economics of magical materials. That seems to me to be an entirely new and complex economy. One that gives expensive and difficult to obtain materials a whole new level of utilitarian value.

That and I tend to detail exactly how the market for loot and swag works. That's a detail no GM should be without. In my current campaign it's largely a government monopoly, but there are very specific reasons for that.

Sometimes I hit the sumptuary laws pretty hard. A little thing like gaining the right to wear beaver fur can be a remarkable motivator to a party if you spin it right. Tax laws can become similarly interesting.

I just finished reading a very interesting book on medieval land management and economics. Fascinating stuff. Would be interesting and difficult to try to apply it to a DnD campaign, though I can also see how a lot of DnD and fantasy generally came out of it.

Someday I would like to see a setting that used a well researched and concieved late medieval economic model. I'd love to run dramas that highlighted:

-rural lords and urban councils with the very democratic guilds developing into their own powers and winning aristocratic priveleges.

-the threat to the life and freedoms of the peasantry represented by liberal capitalist reform of property laws and religion.

-the phenomena of carnival, market, and agent systems whereby cities like Venice or Constantinople could dominate whole continents or a single province such as Burgundy could organize itself so effeciently as to become the wealthiest nation in Europe for three generations.

Heck, the only thing that prevents me from running the middle ages as a setting is the lack of monsters. I'll be interested to see the setting mentioned previously.