Gunpowder Creation, And Other Q's

[Azure Trance]

I'm trying to get a mindset about gunpowder in fantasy (... again). I'm taking it from the viewpoint that it isn't magical, and consists of Saltpeter, Charcoal, and Sulfur, quantity-wise. I'm not sure how common the recipie for it was in the real world, but doubtlessly in fantasy the secret for it would have spread through the use of divination and other magics. So the creation of it would've been more common then not, perhaps even limited by a Gunsmith's Guild to hold a monopoly in the local region.

• Sulfur occurs native in the vicinity of volcanos and hot springs.
• Charcoal can be artificially produced with wood
• Saltpeter, aka Sodium Nitrate, Niter, or Refined Guano In the Nineteenth Century, saltpeter was produced from dried bird droppings, which were mined by the shipful from isolated islands frequented by seabirds. These were a much more reliable source than the piles of manure that had been the primary source in earlier times (because horses became less common in the 19th c.?). I did read that SP can be found in dry, arid Middle East like regions, though I'm not sure what conditions are supposed to be ideal for having SP.

It seems that there is a great deal of flexibility in creating gunpowder; skimming the web I found out that sulfur isn't needed at all, though it would make for worse gunpowder, and sugar could even be subsituted. Charcoal is a common element with blacksmiths in creating pig iron, and Saltpeter is simply fertilizer.

In my mind, with what I found out so far, trade ships from the far east have holds filled with salt peter docking at local ports. Caravans coming back with sulfur from a distant kingdom with a red dragon on the throne. Course, it could be much simpler to gather all the ingredients but something with an exotic flair couldn't hurt. Just trying to gather all the factors which goes into the process of having guns in a campaign world.

Lastly; for a muzzleloaded rifle, if it is pointed down, does the powder and bullet fall out like a crossbow?

 

[Azure Trance]

Another one ... explaining rationale for guns as part of the 'Simple Weapon' feat. Crossbows are essentially point and shoot, and their simple weapons. Reloading might not be fast (w/o rapid reload) and your aim might not be true (due to your low BAB) but operating the gun overall should be quite simple.

Does a gunpowder (blackpowder?) rifle have significantly higher velocity, or force I suppose, then arrows? I've seen many rules for penetration but not sure if it would be accurate to compare a musket to a modern day rifle.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Musket balls are tamped - wedged in place with a material like paper or cloth in order to prevent it falling out and to ensure the maximum seal around the charge (best explosion that way). Immediately prior to the development of the metal cartridge (ie the bullet as we know it in the modern world) cartridges consisted of a ball folded into a paper packet with the gunpowder at the back. The hammer fell onto a firing cap which ignited the paper and the powder all at once.

These are factors that would inhibit musket balls falling out. That being said, there was a reason why loaded muskets were carried on the shoulder - there was a real risk of the ball falling out. It might not have just fallen like a marble running down a track, but rough handling would likely have dislodged it.

 

[Azure Trance]

Thanks for the explanation, NOOC. Just wondering for the case of the pirate with a cutlass in his hand, and a pistol on his wasit. Although I realized, it would be a little illogical to propose that technology was sufficently advanced for gunpowder and firearms, but not yet quite enough for the obvious - of creating a cartridge which had both propellent and bullet in one package. Expeditious, and common sensical. Although that would mean faster reload times, the longbow/crossbow would become obsolete which is something I wouldn't want (it would push it fully into the industrial age with no medieval trappings).

IIRC, cartridge gun (there's probably a better word for what I just said) came in the late 19th century. It wasn't around for the Civil War (1860s) but present for the Old West and six-shooter. A good century ahead at least (if not two) of the feeling I want to evoke.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Remember that a fantasy universe has a lot of inhibitors to firearms which the RW did not have. Even if the magic is rare-ish, you only need a wizard to detonate gunpowder stores in a few key battles over the space of a century and the fear of gunpowder explosions - "damn stuff is a military disaster waiting to happen" - would slow down the spread of gunpowder. Then you've got a situation where it's not widely used but the people who use it have had a long period of time to develop the technology (relative to historical earth).

 

[Drawmack]

My homebrew world has gun powder. The dwarves invented it for mining and keep a tight grip on it. A few gnomes, who are trusted by the dwarves, have created weapons.


Here are the ingredients:
Sulfer - occurs naturally in the mountains and is mined by the dwarves.

Finely ground ashes from the smelting fire - charcole

Dried bat guano from the bats that reside in the abandoned mines - salt peter.

As far as weapons:
They are martial because mixing in the right amount of gun powder and properly tamping/aiming the weapon requires some training. It is more closly related to the regular bow then the cross bow, modern guns would be more closely related to the cross bow.

The barrels are not riffeled and the bullets are round so they are not accurate for that much of a distance (20' range increment at best).

The gun needs to be loaded on the spot or handled very gingerly while loaded.

A wet gun will not fire.

 

[Tonguez]

I use guns and gunpowder too - the 'secret is the exclusive property of the Guild of Gunsmiths which is Licenced by the Church to do so (making the Church army the main beneficiaries of gun weapons)

Saltpetre is created by stacking trays of manure (horse/cow) sprinkling it with water and collecting the liquid which soaks through and dries leaving Nitrate (its the way European Alchemist did it)

Guns are martail weapons (difficult to 'handle' (clean, load, aim) even if they are easy to fire). Takes 3 round to reload and has range 100ft. 1d10+1 damage (+1 to represent the penmetration, +3 Masterwork). A Critical Failure 1 -2 means the gun misfires (needs a 1 hour to clean), or even backfires (causing damage to itself and the user)

Canons are used to defend some port cities and Dwarfs buy it for mining purposes. However it is very vunerable to dragons and fireball attack (which is why it is usually stored underground in rock sealed bunkers).

Unlicenced use of Guns is punishable by Death and if found in treasure are treated as magic Weapons

 

[Andor]

An early firearm is equivilent to if not inferior to a heavy crossbow. A D&D heavy crossbow is in fact an arbalast which is quite a fearsome weapon.

As a side note, crossbows have (or can have) a little clip which holds down the bolt, so they don't just fall out if you tilt your bow the wrong way.

Now another thing to note is that the primary source of problems with early firearms is the ignition source and this is where most the the technological development was concentrated for years. Matchlocks progressed to wheel locks to flint locks to cap and ball guns. In a D&D world, particularly a 3ed one this can all be hop-scotched. Even if you don't enchant the gun itself your trigger can be enchanted to produce the spark cantrip. This would allow a completely sealed breech and would enormously improve the reliability and safety of the gun. Such an enchanted trigger would cost 1000gp. (Unlimited use, use activated, cantrip.) If the use of such becomes standard practice (which might take only a couple of examples of other designs blowing up in peoples faces) then you have a perfect reason to explain the cost of a gun. At that point any new firearm should cost a minimum of 1500 gp. On the other hand with a sealed breech, it wouldn't automatically go off when someone drops a fireball on you. It might still cook off, but there should at least be a save.

-Andor

 

[herald]

To give a real world example, England during the Reniassance restricted the making of gunpowder and ran a monopoly on it.

Musket balls are also not a hard form of lead, but actually a slightly soft version. when packed down, it would become some what mishappen and if packed right, would hae a hard time rolling out of the barrel.

 

[Desdichado]

Which rules are you planning on using for weapons? Some of those questions can be answered implicitly, at least, by the ruleset you use. Personally, I'm in favor of the Freeport rules, and I'd follow that up as a close second with the Iron Kingdoms rules. The DMG rules don't do anything much for me, and I haven't seen Mongoose or AEG rules yet, although I understand they are in print.

Freeport rules have small range increments, high damage, but very high reload times to reflect the rather complicated nature of loading and packing a gun after every shot. A feat can reduce the reload time from three to two rounds, and can be taken again to reduce the time to one round, although you cannot further reduce the reload time after that, and spending two feats on firearms reloading is fairly expensive, IMO (only dedicated musketeers or arquebusiers would have the feat at all, much less twice). Iron Kingdoms assumes the powder is at least somewhat magical, although nothing really in the rules makes that a necessity.

Both sets also have firearms as exotic weapons, although for a campaign in which they feature more prominently, I'd recommend making firearms (or at least basic firearms) be martial weapons, at least for some regions.