Gunpowder Creation, And Other Q's

[s/LaSH]

It should be noted in any discussion of firearms that they're actually less effective in battle than bows.

It's true! Upon analysis, it's been discovered that more casualties were inflicted at range in the days of longbows than the days of muskets. Why is this?

If it's because of the technology, I'd consider dropping either range to very short, or damage to very low. If it's because of skill, well, that's understandable; either a bow is easier to fire than a gun (thus making guns exotic), or the gun was introduced at a time when training was becoming less efficient and elitist, and career soldiers were rarer, in which case, hey, keep 'em lethal.

After all, when it's game mechanics you're talking about, the goal isn't to understand velocity and the intricacies of operation; it's about modelling what actually happens.

 

[Azure Trance]

It should be noted in any discussion of firearms that they're actually less effective in battle than bows.

It's true! Upon analysis, it's been discovered that more casualties were inflicted at range in the days of longbows than the days of muskets. Why is this?

I know, and I believe you! I didn't need to change anything though; D&D already allows up to 5 (or more? I don't play archers) attacks per round, whilst the poor musket is relegated to one a round, forever. I had no intention of making muskets better then bows ... cause quite frankly, for a while they weren't I did get it into my head of thinking about making it ranged touch attack or have penetration rules ... but honestly, I think it would've made the gun more then it was (back then). It was similar to the bow in power, I found. Why not just KISS?

If it's because of the technology, I'd consider dropping either range to very short, or damage to very low.

Smoothbores had horrendous range as it was 50 yards could barely, maybe, hit a man (150 ft? That's a range increment of what, 25 feet? Yuck). Maybe the moon. Rifling, though, extended it to hundreds of yards, though it took minutes to load compared to the relatively quicker smoothbore musket. I can dig that tradeoff. There's something about me though ... maybe it's the munchkin in me ... but I just feel compelled to give it a somewhat better damage rating. To level the fields at least with bows; the idea of the lead ball mushrooming in your flesh and breaking apart is quite different then an arrow just burrowing in (although 5 of those are undoubtedly hazardous for your health). IE, a 50 caliber musket does 2d8 damage. Yowza! Get rapid reload, and you wont match the archer in quantity but when your shots hit, they'll hurt.

After all, when it's game mechanics you're talking about, the goal isn't to understand velocity and the intricacies of operation; it's about modelling what actually happens.

Just trying to model it on real life. Smoothbores had horrid range. Check. Their slow to reload. Check. Etc. It took a few reads to actually understand your post, though ... probably because it's Five in the AM. I almost answered this in a totally different way

 

[Drawmack]

My gun rules are based on Freeport's, almost as much as mutants and masterminds is based on d20.

I changed reloading to take three attack actions instead of 3 rounds. This means that as the character achieves higher levels and a higher bab they will be able to fire more quickly. If they get 4 attacks and perform a full attack action they can fire every round. OTOH: I did away with the feats to speed reloading.

Another thing that I changed is a critical hit is instant death against anything without natural armor +5. You get shot in the throat with a musket ball and you're dead.

Though a critical misfire destroys the gun. Actually it destroys the firing mechanism but before guns were made by machines a broken part ment a broken weapon. And does 1d4 damage to the character's trigger hand and stands a chance (Ref Save DC 15) of causing temporary blindness from the flashback (1d4 rounds).

So you want a massive damage gun you can have it, but there is a price as well.

Also guns are expensive as is gunpowder, but musket balls are cheap. This is because the dwarves have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want. I don't have exact prices worked out yet though.

 

[herald]

Really? Do you mean for the entirety of Europe? If that's the case (I've seen different Saltpeter / Charcoal / Sulfur ratio mixes from England to Russian) how did they hold the monopoly? Controlling all sources and undercutting competitors?

Not for Europe, just England. The government restricted import and manufacturing and sales to government stores.

 

[Azure Trance]

My gun rules are based on Freeport's, almost as much as mutants and masterminds is based on d20.

I changed reloading to take three attack actions instead of 3 rounds. This means that as the character achieves higher levels and a higher bab they will be able to fire more quickly. If they get 4 attacks and perform a full attack action they can fire every round. OTOH: I did away with the feats to speed reloading.

Another thing that I changed is a critical hit is instant death against anything without natural armor +5. You get shot in the throat with a musket ball and you're dead.

Ah, yes, another Freeport book owner With a crit of 20/x3, I'd assume most normal people wouldn't have th hp to take 6d8 (well, from my damage version at least)

Though a critical misfire destroys the gun. Actually it destroys the firing mechanism but before guns were made by machines a broken part ment a broken weapon. And does 1d4 damage to the character's trigger hand and stands a chance (Ref Save DC 15) of causing temporary blindness from the flashback (1d4 rounds).

So you want a massive damage gun you can have it, but there is a price as well.

A totally destroyed gun sounds a little excessive to me (natural roll of 1?) unless you mean Freeports misfire 1-20 table. Two natural ones, I could understand. I read that as time went on in during a battle the gun became less efficent. The powder and residue left in the barrel made the first show and early volleys more accurate and less prone to misfire then subsequent ones. Though it would seem cruel to devise a system for that when the very thing it needs it more stability.

Also guns are expensive as is gunpowder, but musket balls are cheap. This is because the dwarves have a monopoly and can charge whatever they want. I don't have exact prices worked out yet though.

Aye ... I'm still debating on who will control what since it will be very important, but I'm very pleased many of my questions have been answered as well as new ones raised.

 

[Drawmack]

I have typed up my gunpowder rules formally, if anyone would like to playtest them for me drop me a line at tomender@ptd.net.

 

[Andor]

Guns

Another thing to think about is that often times the use of firearms was improved by ancillary technology. The same flintlock might take 5 actions to load piecemeal, 4 if you had a powderhorn with a charge measure and 3 if you're using paper cartidges. Anyone can make a charge measure, you just need to think of it. A paper cartridge requires nitrated paper.

So Gnomes for example, as natural alchemists, might be the first to develop paper cartridges and may hold that monopoly for a while.

And you might well see things like ducksfeet, pillbox guns and piano guns. Not untill you have percussion caps do revolvers become practical, although you could do it with an enchanted trigger gun.

Magic might also play in at the higher end of things. Consider some creative wizards revamping a stone golem into being a self crewed, mobile cannon. Yay grapeshot. Hell think of a shaped wall of force serving as the barrel for a cannon. Given it's immunity to physical force a high level wizard could conjure the equivelent to a 19th century train cannon. Who needs a fireball when you can lob a piece of metal the size of a car 20 miles?

 

[s/LaSH]

Let me just chime in again and say, When was this tech invented in a campaign?

Technological progress and uptake isn't automatically widespread. There could be forces at work that oppose technology such as this on principle (like archmagi who want to remain elite deathdealers), or the secrets of gunpowder might simply have been in use in another land that you don't know about yet. And the idea of a monopoly is another controlling factor.

I'd say more, but I probably shouldn't... for Undisclosed Reasons. Cough cough.

 

[Azure Trance]

Let me just chime in again and say, When was this tech invented in a campaign?

Who knows, but if's fun to speculate Just as it would be nice to envision a cantrip-lock musket which would be more reliable then a flintlock, I could see dwarven citadels with broad and mighty angeld stone walls, with 'artillery' turrets embedded within. (think like the german 88mm ) True, it would look high tech to the extreme, but it's a concept which can mesh well with dwarves fighting for their lives in a genocidal war with goblinoids.

Personally, I wonder about a magical rifle which automatically provides the spark, powder and bullets when you pull the trigger. But that'd be more akin to some 'wand of death' I figure.

 

[s/LaSH]

Who knows, but if's fun to speculate Just as it would be nice to envision a cantrip-lock musket which would be more reliable then a flintlock, I could see dwarven citadels with broad and mighty angeld stone walls, with 'artillery' turrets embedded within. (think like the german 88mm ) True, it would look high tech to the extreme, but it's a concept which can mesh well with dwarves fighting for their lives in a genocidal war with goblinoids.

Personally, I wonder about a magical rifle which automatically provides the spark, powder and bullets when you pull the trigger. But that'd be more akin to some 'wand of death' I figure.

True, dwarves with guns are always cool.

And 'wand of death'... that's getting close to my personal mechanics philosophy, which is "I don't care how it does it, I only care what it can do". And you can build a death wand (or staff, or whatever will take the spell) with just the core rules, no extra mechanics needed, which is about as KISS as it gets.

But there are other sources for such things, or there will be. And my lips are sealed.