Funkenstein23
First Post
Omigosh. I seriously need to do a magic steampunk old west setting in dnd. That all sounds so freakin intense.
Gunpowder, fantasy and you
- Thread starter Jon_Dahl
- Start date
Omigosh. I seriously need to do a magic steampunk old west setting in dnd. That all sounds so freakin intense.
pawsplay
Hero
No, I was only making a point about alchemy and gunpowder. As I just said, I don't see a problem separating the rapier from the musket, though of course that is astoundingly anachronistic. Different laws of physics do not preclude characters from logically pursuing applications of things that demonstrably work in the setting.
Consider the transporter on Star Trek. Absolutely, I can accept the Star Trek universe is probably not our own. But I can't think of any good reason why the transporter memory banks, which we have seen in use many times, cannot be used to create a limitless supply of Jean-Luc Picard clones, enough to defeat every menace in the universe that doesn't take cover behind liberal humanism.
So... back to gunpowder. If alchemists can create instant epoxies (tanglefoot bag) and other chemical wonders, and magic can create explosions (explosive fireball), it does seem a little unlikely that alchemy and/or magic can't figure out something to stick into a bomb, bombard, or cannon. Even in consideration of whatever "different physical laws" you want, the worlds of D&D tend to have vastly MORE resources for building guns and bombs, if they chose to do so. The reaons have to be something else.
So, it is really more difficult to explain why gunpowder or gunpowderlike weapons are not available than to say that they simply are. And they can continue to exist alongside chivalry and feudalism and cavalry and catapults and archery, just as they did in real history for centuries. The only reason to exclude them is a personal preference. If one were to play in a historical Japanese game, it would be a reason to select an era before the widespread use of muskets rather than after. In D&D, it is a consideration that shapes the genre enacted.
There is nothing wrong with plate armor in a world with no guns, but it should be recognized as a fanstastical scape, like a gangster movie in which everyone uses kung fu and no guns, or the various Victoriana/steampunk settings. If you want something more grounded, it's easier to aim for something more like the era of the late Crusades, and then file the edges to include or exclude technology of neighboring centuries. Sometimes I do play a gonzo, all-in fantasy setting, but for serious world-building, I would prefer something more grounded. Not necessarily Earth-like, but something intellible to humans and able to withstand reasonably educated viewpoints coming at the setting from various directions.
Shades of Green
Explorer
It depends on the setting. If you want to emulate Conan or Lord of the Rings, or if you want an Arthurian or Dark Ages game, firearms should stay out of your game. But if you want a renaissance, steampunk, or, more importantly, if you want a pirate game (ARRR!), guns would fit right in.
As for the rules, I don't think that firearms need to be too different, mechanically speaking, from crossbows; I'd give them a somewhat better damage (in D20 or BFRPG, 1d8 for pistols and 1d10 for muskets), require two full rounds to load (one full round with a feat, or, in BFRPG, one round if you are a Fighter), make them very noisy and make the powder vulnerable to fire and water. Everyone should be able to use firearms, or, for the very least, pistols. The long loading times should encourage 'pirate'-type combat: fire your gun once, then draw your cutlass and charge (while screaming ARRRR!
).
As for the rules, I don't think that firearms need to be too different, mechanically speaking, from crossbows; I'd give them a somewhat better damage (in D20 or BFRPG, 1d8 for pistols and 1d10 for muskets), require two full rounds to load (one full round with a feat, or, in BFRPG, one round if you are a Fighter), make them very noisy and make the powder vulnerable to fire and water. Everyone should be able to use firearms, or, for the very least, pistols. The long loading times should encourage 'pirate'-type combat: fire your gun once, then draw your cutlass and charge (while screaming ARRRR!
).
Having the capability to develop a thing does not mean the thing actually gets developed. Particular technological advancements are not part of fate or destiny.
So, there's no reason they could not figure out something to put in a bombard, sure. But there is no particular reason they must figure out something to put in a bombard, either. Especially when you have people and monsters who, by themselves, are largely equivalent to bombards (which our real world doesn't have).
For 4E mechanics, here's what I'd go with:
Musket (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 50 gp
Damage: 1d12
Proficiency: +2
Range: 15/30
Weight: 10 lbs.
Properties: Load Standard, High Crit
Group: Crossbow*
Pistol (Simple One-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 30 gp
Damage: 1d10
Proficiency: +2
Range: 10/20
Weight: 3 lbs.
Properties: Load Standard, High Crit
Group: Crossbow*
[size=-2]*The crossbow group might be renamed to "mechanical."[/size]
Musket (Simple Two-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 50 gp
Damage: 1d12
Proficiency: +2
Range: 15/30
Weight: 10 lbs.
Properties: Load Standard, High Crit
Group: Crossbow*
Pistol (Simple One-Handed Ranged Weapon)
Cost: 30 gp
Damage: 1d10
Proficiency: +2
Range: 10/20
Weight: 3 lbs.
Properties: Load Standard, High Crit
Group: Crossbow*
[size=-2]*The crossbow group might be renamed to "mechanical."[/size]
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You can easily have firearms in a Dark Ages or Conan or LotR style game. Just don't give them to everyone. It's not like the entire world suddenly had firearms as soon as they were discovered.
I don't get it. We accept that a small number of people can learn magic but most don't. A small number of people can learn alchemy but most don't. A small number of people can become PCs but most don't.
But everyone must have firearms once they exist.
In fact, as a freebie, I'll give four great fluffy reasons you can have firearms in such a game that not only doesn't "kill the fluff" but gives you even more and greater plot hooks. Not even black powder weapons, but modern cap and rifling.
1) The Alkenstar Reason: Alkenstar is an area on the Pathfinder setting of Golarion that is located in a huge mana-dead zone. As a result, they've developed technologically and, hey, they have guns - rifles and revolvers at that. Of course, they make guns and sell them...but since they control the entire production, they don't sell a lot, and what they do sell is their crap models that were made cheaply, leading to rifles non-Alkenstar folks get aren't used for actual firing, and are kept as a status symbol. Your gun-toting character comes from Alkenstar and has a distinctively non-crap version of their firearms, along with the knowledge on how to clean and repair it as well as make their own bullets from common alchemical materials.
2) The Suikoden Reason: In the setting of Suikoden, one of the major political power players is the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia. One of their more vicious and feared groups inside of Harmonia is the Howling Voice Guild, a secretive cabal of assassins who, you guessed it, use guns. And only they use guns. If they ever hear of someone else developing it, or if an agent with a firearm is ever lost and the firearm isn't returned, then a hunt begins - ensuring that they, and only they, have access. Your gun-toting character is one such agent - perhaps sent to join the party for outside reasons, perhaps working on his own, perhaps he has an outside goal and believes the party will help him achieve it, or perhaps he's even on the run.
3) The Exotic Reason
Firearms are a strange weapon from another land. Europe never had repeating crossbows despite repeating crossbows being horrifying weapons of death. Heck, China had crude flamethrowers and a style of pump vastly superior to European ones. It's not exactly uncommon for countries to have weapons that don't really spread outside of the country. Your gun-toting character is a wanderer from another land, carrying a weapon others don't really get.
4) The Gunslinger Reason
People know what firearms are. Or what they were, at least. This could be a continuation of any of the above. Firearms used to be known to the world but, for one reason or another, that knowledge was lost outside of a select few. Your gun-toting character is one of those few. The world around doesn't get how gun-forging works, much less how to properly use one.
Boom, there you go. Four distinct fluff reasons to have guns in your Dark Ages setting without suddenly "Oh man everyone has a gun now!"
I don't get it. We accept that a small number of people can learn magic but most don't. A small number of people can learn alchemy but most don't. A small number of people can become PCs but most don't.
But everyone must have firearms once they exist.
In fact, as a freebie, I'll give four great fluffy reasons you can have firearms in such a game that not only doesn't "kill the fluff" but gives you even more and greater plot hooks. Not even black powder weapons, but modern cap and rifling.
1) The Alkenstar Reason: Alkenstar is an area on the Pathfinder setting of Golarion that is located in a huge mana-dead zone. As a result, they've developed technologically and, hey, they have guns - rifles and revolvers at that. Of course, they make guns and sell them...but since they control the entire production, they don't sell a lot, and what they do sell is their crap models that were made cheaply, leading to rifles non-Alkenstar folks get aren't used for actual firing, and are kept as a status symbol. Your gun-toting character comes from Alkenstar and has a distinctively non-crap version of their firearms, along with the knowledge on how to clean and repair it as well as make their own bullets from common alchemical materials.
2) The Suikoden Reason: In the setting of Suikoden, one of the major political power players is the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia. One of their more vicious and feared groups inside of Harmonia is the Howling Voice Guild, a secretive cabal of assassins who, you guessed it, use guns. And only they use guns. If they ever hear of someone else developing it, or if an agent with a firearm is ever lost and the firearm isn't returned, then a hunt begins - ensuring that they, and only they, have access. Your gun-toting character is one such agent - perhaps sent to join the party for outside reasons, perhaps working on his own, perhaps he has an outside goal and believes the party will help him achieve it, or perhaps he's even on the run.
3) The Exotic Reason
Firearms are a strange weapon from another land. Europe never had repeating crossbows despite repeating crossbows being horrifying weapons of death. Heck, China had crude flamethrowers and a style of pump vastly superior to European ones. It's not exactly uncommon for countries to have weapons that don't really spread outside of the country. Your gun-toting character is a wanderer from another land, carrying a weapon others don't really get.
4) The Gunslinger Reason
People know what firearms are. Or what they were, at least. This could be a continuation of any of the above. Firearms used to be known to the world but, for one reason or another, that knowledge was lost outside of a select few. Your gun-toting character is one of those few. The world around doesn't get how gun-forging works, much less how to properly use one.
Boom, there you go. Four distinct fluff reasons to have guns in your Dark Ages setting without suddenly "Oh man everyone has a gun now!"
The answer lies in what you just wrote.
Learn magic. Learn alchemy. Have firearms. Note the difference: major learning curve and Intelligence requirement vs cash in pocket.
Your reasons all share a very basic flaw - reverse engineering happens. Historically, limited or controlled production does not long contain the spread of a more effective technology. At the end of a discussion pointing out how in our world they became common earlier than most people think, getting folks to accept that the tech can be kept uncommon seems... a dubious enterprise
lin_fusan
First Post
I might make it Load Move, otherwise characters would only be able to fire once every two rounds and that wouldn't make the increased damage die worth it.
It would also be thematically appropriate when a gun-wielding character faces with a melee opponent. They'd have to decide whether or not to fire the gun and get an OA or to drop and pull a melee weapon, which simulates the fire then drop-to-melee style of play mentioned previously.
Although then I might change the High Crit... perhaps to Brutal 1? I dunno...
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The answer lies in what you just wrote.
Learn magic. Learn alchemy. Have firearms. Note the difference: major learning curve and Intelligence requirement vs cash in pocket.
Your reasons all share a very basic flaw - reverse engineering happens. Historically, limited or controlled production does not long contain the spread of a more effective technology. At the end of a discussion pointing out how in our world they became common earlier than most people think, getting folks to accept that the tech can be kept uncommon seems... a dubious enterprise
Except that it took a very long time for it to become common in Europe despite China having it for a very, very long time. Except that there's been more then enough examples of technology doing exactly what you claim as a "dubious enterprise."
Even beyond that, your wordplay doesn't work.
Have magical items. Have alchemical items. Learn firearms usage, cleaning, and maintenance.
See I can do it too.
pawsplay
Hero
Indeed. And despite the proximity of China, Japan depended on the importation of European weapons and expertise for quite some time during their transition warfare. While the production of black powder is not all that difficult, producing it safely and in quantities is a bit of cultural knowledge that will not spread automatically, to say nothing of the difficulties of learning to make good metal for the guns themselves.
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