HârnMaster 3 pdf available free from CGI!

[DongMaster]

I not going to bother getting dragged into a petty Harn war.

Of course not there is no point... Like you I was not after anything like that.

Now compare my one simple fact about me to this quote from the above link by Robin Crossby "Who likes the Hârnic environment? Our typical customer is a 21 year old college student. This compares with the industry standard 14 year old."

This was written eons ago when the state of the RPG industry was more like this. See below...

If you found my simple personal comment to be an implied insult, then CERTAINLY, you MUST admit that Robin's is a more thinly vieled insult on relative gamer maturity (and a deeply erroneous one at that).

Insult? No man, I hardly saw what you wrote as an insult and truth be told I was refering to the Hârn Forum and not the intro to Hârn. But Robin is not far off as you might think. And calling it an insult to the rest of the RPG industry is bogus man. I have friends who game D&D (who call it superior to Hârn because of the reasons they game it) that are in their late 40ies and I know sons and younger siblings who also games D&D, but seldom do I see youngster game Hârn.

Many of those who finds the game and starts enjoying it, are those who has tried out the rest of the industry and are looking for a more "suspension of disbelief" kinda game with lots of detail, "realism", and different kinda gaming (not to mention the immense medieval touch). It does however not mean that HârnMaster or Hârn are better because of it, but it does makes it great because we who game it loves what it represents. Just like some game D&D, Exhalted, Vampire and so on.

Second, I clearly stated that only a portion of the Harn folks have this superiority thing going. So saying "Not me" is irrelevant. I have been in several conversations which basically ended in some variant of "You just can't handle it."

Uh... Not on the Hârn Forum I can assure you. However the exact same thing happens to me a lot when I am advocating Hârn's strengths and why I find it so fun to game, on other forums. Often I get people who just simply comment what a lousy game it is without any reference to anything. It is like everytime WotC release something and there is a discussion about it, I would swoop in a tell you guys how much it all sucks. That never happens from my side and I can vouch not any Hârn member on the forum that I know of either.

Which is laughable, but quite informative of the speaker. When it becomes routine from a population, one begins to conclude that it represents that population. Pointing out that exceptions exist does not change reality.

Reality? You jest me surely... I mean what you write is almost like we see ourselves as enlightened people that spits in your direction. That is simply not the case but we do feel we are gaming a superior game. Why else game it? You play whatever you game for other reasons than this? Yes fun of course but the best in your opinion is what you will game (unless you do not have any players) normally. I it wasn't I wouldn't game it at all. Hârn represents everything I want in a game and I have not looked back on standard fantasy since I was introduced to it 15 years ago.

And Robin would probably have written it differently today (or so I am guessing)...

 

[BryonD]

Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.

I don't care which.

 

[Krieg]

Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.

I don't care which.

...and of course the D20 community is notable for it's lack of elitist snobs.

 

[BryonD]

...and of course the D20 community is notable for it's lack of elitist snobs.

No doubt.

But I have not expressed any issues with Harn or HarnMaster itself. It all seems to be fine. I would dispute that more complicated and, in theory, more "realistic", makes for a more intelligent game. But I wouldn't claim it to be inferior either.

But while D20 CERTAINLY has its snobs, my repeated experience has been that the Harn community is defined by them.

I did not blow him off because I am a D20 over HarnMaster snob.

I blew him off because I am a My Time over No Win Debate with a Harniac Snob.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

BryonD

I must agree with you that, in parts, Robin Crossby's introduction to Harn rweads like pretentious twaddle. It was written when first edition was published. Look at the early pronouncements of Gary Gygax et al and you'll find a fair amount of pretentious twaddle there too.

I have no problem at all if you don't like HarnMaster as a system. Every Forum has people who arrogantly claim that their system is best. There are very few of them on the HarnForum, which does, as has been pointed out, have a specific forum for those who use other rules sets to game on Harn.

I'm not sure that HarnMaster is any closer to BRP as a system than Pendragon is to D20. HM and BRP use a % based system, so do lots of games.

As you may have guessed HM is my favourite system, I'd certainly recommend the rules to anyone (especially at the current price!)

 

[DongMaster]

Sorry, either you are ignoring the reality of the Harn community or you are oblivious of it.

None of it in fact... I am the ass on the Hârn Forum so I should know.

I don't care which.

Yes you do... Otherwise you wouldn't continue.

But I do like your determination, believe it or not, even if you haven't convinced me at all or I you. The things I spoke of are my beliefs and I will stick to them since they have proved me right at least so many times. Off I go to my snob forum and smoke my Havannas and drink my five star whiskey.

But to those turned down by this, the PDF is still up and free...

 

[Glyfair]

First Edition Harnmaster was published in 1986, second edition in 1996 and third edition last year.

Thats less rules amendments that most other systems of a similar age. I think that's becuase they got it pretty much right first time round. You, of course may disagree!

Based on my experience, I would say a possible reason they wen't through so few systems was because a large number of people who played in the world didn't use the system. Most of the Harn players I used to deal with (admittedly, this was the 80's) played in the world because it was incredibly detailed, and didn't like the character system at all.

Back then it was described to me as a world for people who wanted to know exactly how many peasants were in a specific village, where they lived and what was in their cottage.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

a possible reason they wen't through so few systems was because a large number of people who played in the world didn't use the system. Most of the Harn players I used to deal with (admittedly, this was the 80's) played in the world because it was incredibly detailed, and didn't like the character system at all.

This is, of course, still the case, there are a lot of players who game on the world of Harn & don't use Harnmaster. I used to use a cut down version of RuneQuest myself (but then I bought Harn before Harnmaster existed). [That is not meant to sound smug].

I think Harn is different because the world was created first, and the rules written later. It seems to me that most game designers make the rules then design a world to fit. To me a believable world should come first. You're right, it is possible to detail every resident of every village in Harn. I've done a couple to that level of detail myself. But if that is where the PC's live, it's as well to let them know who their neighbours are.

As for the rules, personally, I'm always surprised at the number of people who use Harnmaster in their own, home-built, worlds.

GOM

 

[hrafnagud]

But while D20 CERTAINLY has its snobs, my repeated experience has been that the Harn community is defined by them.

Sorry, I hadn't actually noticed you participating in the Hârn community. I feel the need to set you straight on the merits of the Hârn community, but in all likelyhood [irony]you just can't handle it[/irony].

 

[BryonD]

Sorry, I hadn't actually noticed you participating in the Hârn community. I feel the need to set you straight on the merits of the Hârn community, but in all likelyhood [irony]you just can't handle it[/irony].

Are you claiming that things you don't notice do not happen?

If not, what ARE you claiming?