DongMaster
First Post
BryonD said:
That's the spirit BryonD, never yield as we Copper Hooks say, never yield... *
* Especially not to a Hârnic snob swine right?
HârnMaster 3 pdf available free from CGI!
- Thread starter hrafnagud
- Start date
That's the spirit BryonD, never yield as we Copper Hooks say, never yield... *
* Especially not to a Hârnic snob swine right?
DongMaster
First Post
BryonD said:
C'mon man, you really think I would dare to do that? You are my hero...
BTW, my dad could beat your dad so there.
All jesting aside do you really think you can convince anyone that we are elitists, swines, snobs, bla bla bla...? Maybe we are in your eyes but the amount of flaming over at our place is abmyssal at most. Your statements are only true if you are overly touchy in forums. They are games nothing more. Treat them as such.
BryonD
Hero
Why is it that at least two if you seem to demand that my only life experience with Harn fans can exist on the Harn forums?
I am uncertain what it really means that you are so determined to deny that my experiences have happened.
I really can not imagine myself ever being in a situation where I had to try to convince someone that their past did not really happen.
And it isn't about flames. I have never felt slightly insulted. Only, as I stated in my first post in this thread, amused.
I am uncertain what it really means that you are so determined to deny that my experiences have happened.
I really can not imagine myself ever being in a situation where I had to try to convince someone that their past did not really happen.
And it isn't about flames. I have never felt slightly insulted. Only, as I stated in my first post in this thread, amused.
DongMaster
First Post
BryonD said:
I dunno really. Some would say that I am annoying, especially on the Hârn Forums, some would say I am just seeking attention because of my hard childhood growing up with AD&D. But I think it is because I am an elitist snob who games the superior Hârn game that will rule zee wurld one day...
You really should check out the Hooks' slogan man, you would have liked it.
Trystorp
First Post
I think it's unfortunate that this thread has degenerated into this kind of banter. In my personal experience the Harn community has been in large part a mature, thoughtful and fascinating bunch. This opportunity to download a free .pdf of the HarnMaster system I would hope will bring new fans to the community.
I, like the majority of role-players, grew up on D&D and its various incarnations. When I grew tired of many of the aspects of that rule system I dipped my feet in the waters of dozens of other systems looking for something that would allow me to play in a way that I could maintain my suspension of disbelief. I have found HarnMaster to be a system that does this better than any other. It has an ease of use that I find startling when I look at other systems I have played over the years. I find I spend the majority of my GMing time focusing on the events of the session rather than looking up rules. I find the system to be the most intuitive I have played. As others have said, it is a difficult system to break and a remarkably easy one to modify - as the large number of houserule documents on the web can attest to. Some might argue (and some have!) that this indicates a broken system to begin with but I disagree. I find it to simply be a matter of granularity. The core system contains the basics needed to play and the many options available in the book expand on this, allowing GMs to add as much detail as fits their style of play. The multitudes of houserules continue to feed the needs of hungry GMs!
Again, in my experience, HarnMaster is a great rule set. It is however tailored to a certain style of play - low fantasy. It does not cater to the loin-clothed berserker or bikini-clad warrior woman. It depicts fairly realistic warfare. As you would expect, an armoured warrior has a distinct advantage over unarmoured opponents. Combat is deadly, but I have not found this to a detriment to long campaigns. Instead, my players became more engrossed with their characters. They adjusted their concept of what "heroic" meant in the context of a low-fantasy world. They guard their lives carefully and choose fights with great discretion. Avoiding combat is always an option they are more than willing to take! They have become more careful, thoughtful and tactical players. The system, in my opinion, is in large part to blame for this.
I have not found Harn fans to be pretentious or snobbish. It is unfortunate if that has been the experience of others. We are a group of individuals who have found a world and/or system that works for us where other worlds or systems have failed to do so. Harn is an incredibly detailed and realistic fantasy world that allows my imagination to soar, unfettered by inconsistencies and over the top fantasy elements. HarnMaster is a rule system that allows me to run my game in this world or other similar worlds. Is it perfect? Of course not - there are elements of it that don't completely work for me (though certainly do for others) but it does what it is designed to do very well.
All of the above is in my experience and in my opinion. I apologize for gushing and any pretension that may have seeped through into my words...
Give it a look - you can't beat the price!
I, like the majority of role-players, grew up on D&D and its various incarnations. When I grew tired of many of the aspects of that rule system I dipped my feet in the waters of dozens of other systems looking for something that would allow me to play in a way that I could maintain my suspension of disbelief. I have found HarnMaster to be a system that does this better than any other. It has an ease of use that I find startling when I look at other systems I have played over the years. I find I spend the majority of my GMing time focusing on the events of the session rather than looking up rules. I find the system to be the most intuitive I have played. As others have said, it is a difficult system to break and a remarkably easy one to modify - as the large number of houserule documents on the web can attest to. Some might argue (and some have!) that this indicates a broken system to begin with but I disagree. I find it to simply be a matter of granularity. The core system contains the basics needed to play and the many options available in the book expand on this, allowing GMs to add as much detail as fits their style of play. The multitudes of houserules continue to feed the needs of hungry GMs!
Again, in my experience, HarnMaster is a great rule set. It is however tailored to a certain style of play - low fantasy. It does not cater to the loin-clothed berserker or bikini-clad warrior woman. It depicts fairly realistic warfare. As you would expect, an armoured warrior has a distinct advantage over unarmoured opponents. Combat is deadly, but I have not found this to a detriment to long campaigns. Instead, my players became more engrossed with their characters. They adjusted their concept of what "heroic" meant in the context of a low-fantasy world. They guard their lives carefully and choose fights with great discretion. Avoiding combat is always an option they are more than willing to take! They have become more careful, thoughtful and tactical players. The system, in my opinion, is in large part to blame for this.
I have not found Harn fans to be pretentious or snobbish. It is unfortunate if that has been the experience of others. We are a group of individuals who have found a world and/or system that works for us where other worlds or systems have failed to do so. Harn is an incredibly detailed and realistic fantasy world that allows my imagination to soar, unfettered by inconsistencies and over the top fantasy elements. HarnMaster is a rule system that allows me to run my game in this world or other similar worlds. Is it perfect? Of course not - there are elements of it that don't completely work for me (though certainly do for others) but it does what it is designed to do very well.
All of the above is in my experience and in my opinion. I apologize for gushing and any pretension that may have seeped through into my words...
Give it a look - you can't beat the price!
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BryonD
Hero
Hello Trystorp,
Thanks for the thoughts. Obviously you are among the first group I mentioned. I agree that the path of this thread is unfortunate, but I guess I really can not say I am surprised.
There certainly has not been any Harn-snobbery in THIS thread. But this thread has turned into a discussion on whether or not it exists, so I'm not certain it makes for good evidence either way on that count.
But, before you entered, three out of three pro-Harn folks were basically saying that my past history simply did not exist. I hope you can understand how that can be quite difficult to take seriously. One person is funny. Three is a pattern.
Like I said, I'm not really suprised it went this way. But my honest hope, to the extent that I cared, was that someone like you would come along, someone willing to be mature and thoughtful.
It may be that you are all extremely polite and engaging with each other. But there are people proclaiming themselves to be Harn fans who go to a lot of trouble to put a very bad face on the rest of you. You'll note that I'm not even the first one in the thread to mention this. I just replied that my past supported the same experience that someone else expressed they were, at least, starting to feel. A thoughtful response would be something to the tune of "Whoever you've met in the past doesn't speak for us." or something like that. But instead I get irrational claims that my experiences are false, and even, better, implications that it couldn't have happened because someone else did not observe it for themself, not to mention the other blatantly childish asides. Honestly, do you feel that the maturity you have seen within the Harn community is being shown here? (Your own post aside.)
I completely respect what you said about the game itself. I used to be very much into that kind of playing. What you said about low-fantasy is almost word for word the type thing I myself said many times. But now I prefer loin cloth barbarians, drow and mindflayers. Not a maturity thing, it is just where I am these days. My only point here is I REALLY don't have a single problem with Harn or HarnMaster or any of that. My only issue is the distinctly abrasive attitude I have encountered on several occasions.
So anyway, thanks for the post. It is certainly very refreshing. I am sorry that my bad experiences in the past contribute to unflattering conversation around the game you enjoy.
Thanks for the thoughts. Obviously you are among the first group I mentioned. I agree that the path of this thread is unfortunate, but I guess I really can not say I am surprised.
There certainly has not been any Harn-snobbery in THIS thread. But this thread has turned into a discussion on whether or not it exists, so I'm not certain it makes for good evidence either way on that count.
But, before you entered, three out of three pro-Harn folks were basically saying that my past history simply did not exist. I hope you can understand how that can be quite difficult to take seriously. One person is funny. Three is a pattern.
Like I said, I'm not really suprised it went this way. But my honest hope, to the extent that I cared, was that someone like you would come along, someone willing to be mature and thoughtful.
It may be that you are all extremely polite and engaging with each other. But there are people proclaiming themselves to be Harn fans who go to a lot of trouble to put a very bad face on the rest of you. You'll note that I'm not even the first one in the thread to mention this. I just replied that my past supported the same experience that someone else expressed they were, at least, starting to feel. A thoughtful response would be something to the tune of "Whoever you've met in the past doesn't speak for us." or something like that. But instead I get irrational claims that my experiences are false, and even, better, implications that it couldn't have happened because someone else did not observe it for themself, not to mention the other blatantly childish asides. Honestly, do you feel that the maturity you have seen within the Harn community is being shown here? (Your own post aside.)
I completely respect what you said about the game itself. I used to be very much into that kind of playing. What you said about low-fantasy is almost word for word the type thing I myself said many times. But now I prefer loin cloth barbarians, drow and mindflayers. Not a maturity thing, it is just where I am these days. My only point here is I REALLY don't have a single problem with Harn or HarnMaster or any of that. My only issue is the distinctly abrasive attitude I have encountered on several occasions.
So anyway, thanks for the post. It is certainly very refreshing. I am sorry that my bad experiences in the past contribute to unflattering conversation around the game you enjoy.
Trystorp
First Post
BryonD said:
Bryon,
While I certainly DO want a system that models "realistic" behavior I would argue with your assertion that HarnMaster is highly complex. In fact, I find it far less complex than the majority of systems I have played, and in particular far less complex than D&D. HarnMaster has one essential mechanic used throughout the game - differing levels of success based on a percentile system. The combat grid looks frightening to begin with and succeeded in turning me off of the first incarnation of HarnMaster at first glance but it has become much more streamlined and slick since then. After a couple of sessions I and my players found that we rarely even had to look at it - we'd memorized the bulk of it.
Many people think of Rolemaster when they think of a system designed for "realism". HarnMaster is not a table heavy, dice crunching system. The real strength of HarnMaster in my opinion is that while it does present a fairly realistic model it does so in an ergonomic fashion - slick and easy!
For what it's worth, I am sorry that people you have encountered in the past have turned you off Harn and Harniacs. Harn tends to appeal to detail oriented people, who like to see how economies, cultures, and social structures integrate with each other and work. Detail oriented people, perhaps by their very nature can seem picky, snobby and pretentious. (My wife, after reading my first message assured me that I too sounded this way...) I would hope that my and others enthusiasm for our game does not come across so poorly to the roleplaying public. As a community (though I can't claim to speak for this body) we would like to encourage more people to look at Harn.
Harn is one of the few games, if not the only game, that has delved into these detailed aspects of a gaming world and presented a working and consistent model. But don't get me wrong here - Harn isn't all dull detail! I find that each time I sit down with HarnWorld or one of the kingdom modules I have adventure hooks flying out at me on every page.
Each of us has come to Harn in our own way, and as "DongMaster" has said, believe that it is the best world or system for our own style of play. Thankfully, there are many different kinds of people in our hobby and many different games to accommodate them. Harn is the game for me. As I said earlier, I hope others take a look at this free .pdf and come to realize that Harn may also be the game for them.
Proselytizing mode off...
I would strongly encourage anyone who feels curious about Harn to visit Lythia.com and experience some of the many downloads available on that site. Many are useful whether you game in Harn or not. In particular visit the Swords and Shields section - there are many very high quality downloads there, although high quality is most certainly not exclusive to this section.
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hrafnagud
First Post
BryonD, I believe our quarrel lies in the definition of the 'Hârn community.' I take it to mean the participants on the Hârn forum, who account for the lion's share of CGI's sales. For instance, the number of preorders on new products is nearly exactly the same as the number of active forum members. You appear to extend the definition to cover anyone you've met who plays the game. Nobody is wrong here, we just have different definitions. Perhaps this is a cause for the unfortunate misunderstanding.
I am unqualified to speak about your history with Hârn, and one would be a fool to think otherwise. Thinking thus, in what way have I denied your past experiences ever happened? How could I be taken seriously making such a claim? I simply feel that for you to state that the Hârn Community (see my definition above) believes "you can't handle it" would require actually interacting with said community. Perhaps you have; I've never taken notice.
Personally, I've never seen a forum as full of polite and courtious people as the Hârn forum. Remarks like your's strike home because I identify with those people, and I thought the statement to be erronious, unfounded and unfair. This certainly doesn't mean you haven't met elitist Hârniacs in the past, as you seem to feel I have implied. I apologize if you feel slighted. Peace.
I am unqualified to speak about your history with Hârn, and one would be a fool to think otherwise. Thinking thus, in what way have I denied your past experiences ever happened? How could I be taken seriously making such a claim? I simply feel that for you to state that the Hârn Community (see my definition above) believes "you can't handle it" would require actually interacting with said community. Perhaps you have; I've never taken notice.
Personally, I've never seen a forum as full of polite and courtious people as the Hârn forum. Remarks like your's strike home because I identify with those people, and I thought the statement to be erronious, unfounded and unfair. This certainly doesn't mean you haven't met elitist Hârniacs in the past, as you seem to feel I have implied. I apologize if you feel slighted. Peace.
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DongMaster
First Post
BryonD said:
I don't know if I should weep or laugh because that is not what I am saying at all good ol' BryonD. I am saying that the kind of attitude you describe is almost abmyssal (I love that word) on the Hârn Forum which, truth be told, caters to most active internet Hârn gamers today. My irony and taunts arose because of the early postings from your fingers, not the later ones. You may have had bad experiences with Hârn folks from the past, but believe me that is nothing (I am assuming) compared to the forums that I have been to lately.
It is like there are scoring points to swoop in, tell me how snobbish we are, and how the game suck ass, and then swoop out and be the hero of the day. If you do not like the game, the people, or even the presence of us here, why even bother to enter the thread when there is nothing to gain from it (generally speaking)? I simply do not get it, especially when it is offered for free. Or maybe I am missing something completely and should swoop in and do the same each time Wizards or someone else release something?
To get back on track, and keep my ironic mode to a minimum, for those wanting to know a little more and do not have the stomach to read Crossby's old Hârn introduction this may be a bit better:
http://www.rpgunited.com/info/harnworld.html
It is not much but takes a neutral standing compared to the other...
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