Half-elves........why no one chooses them?
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Rystil Arden
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No no. I mean a hypothetical Aasimar with no LASeeten said:
Remember--I'm using Karinsdad's argument to prove that all LA +1 races could just be LA 0.IanB said:
Massive? Or slight?
Many PrCs cannot be achieved until 6th level, but can be achieved by most races by that time. There are some exceptions, but a few exceptions do not make it a massive advantage.
And, if this is true for humans, it means that it is true for them compared to most other races.
IanB
First Post
KarinsDad said:
Agreed that it is a human advantage over every other race. The reason I bring it up here is I use humans as the primary measuring stick for the half-elf, as they are the most similar race to the half-elf, having no stat adjustments, favored class, size problems, etc. I feel this highlights the disadvantage best.
I think part of the disagreement here is you seem to value feats a lot less than I do. Feats are perhaps the most precious and valuable resource a character has, and getting an extra one puts humans at a significant advantage for most specialized roles. It means they run one step ahead of any other race on feat chains at any given level, it means they can follow multiple chains more easily with non-fighters, etc., etc., etc. Maybe at first level the human's advantage is that he has weapon focus, which is a small relative difference. At 8th level, the difference could be far more significant - in effect, the human's feat advantage grows over time when you're talking about a feat chain, because the feat he has extra is always the *best* one in the chain. For some chains this is obviously more significant than others. (As an aside, I frequently take empower spell at first level as a wizard. I may as well get it out of the way early, since it has no prerequisites, and save my later slots for feats that I don't qualify for at 1st level.)
Another thing to note is that all of the half-elf's significant advantages - low light vision, immunity to sleep, bonus on enchantment saves - can be duplicated or exceeded via magic. This is less true for many other races, and totally impossible for humans. A +2 on enchantment saves is handy early on but useless by the time, say, mind blank comes along; the human's feat and skill points always stay useful.
As for the half-elf's skill bonuses, they're probably the only reason I might choose one, although it is worth noticing that by level 4 the human's total extra skill points exceed the skill bonuses possessed by the half-elf. They don't go over the maximum ranks, but they're far more versatile.
Rystil Arden said:
The difference between Human/Half Elf and your example is that:
1) Both races are LA 0
2) Both race gain racial abilities. The Half Elf gains more racial abilities, the Human gains two which are more versatile.
versus
It takes the Human 3 to 11 levels (class dependent) to gain the skill points to make up for the Listen, Search, Spot, Diplomacy, and Gather Information skills, and by then, both characters have so many abilities going for them that it is no longer really relevant.
That leaves Low Light Vision plus +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects versus a Feat (the Sleep Immunity is not that impressive). That's pretty much a wash considering that the racial save has most of the potency of Iron Will, a feat. Most Will saves are enhancement spells (sure, there are some like Bear's Endurance Transmutation, but most characters do not want to fail those types of saving throws).
The half elf actually gets more, the human gets choice. I think the real issue comes down to people preferring choice. But, this is a perception of a balance issue more than it is an actual balance issue.
IanB said:
I find feats useful, but not invaluable.
I find spells invaluable.
The main advantage that PCs have over most NPC encounters is spells, not feats. The reason is that creatures get few feats, but spell casters get many spells and many variety of spells.
Feats are not much different than most other abilities: sneak attack, rage, etc. It is the ability to do something that someone else might not be able to do. But, all classes get a boatload of abilities in one way or another. One more means little in the long run except maybe for some specific build.
PS. I consider Darkvision to be the single most potent low level ability in the game, better than any first level feat.
Particle_Man
Explorer
IanB said:
Goblins have darkvision. They make better "sneak" rogues (dex bonus, size bonus, direct racial bonus all contribute to hide/move silently). They lose out in Str (not a big deal for rogues), and have social penalties (civilized folk don't like them (but civilized folk often don't like rogues anyhow)). And they can take their mounts into a dungeon, if they decide to got that route.
I would rather play a goblin than a half-elf, given only those two racial choices.
Bront
The man with the probe
I think the problem is this.KarinsDad said:
Humans:
Half-Elves:
Elves:
So, let's compaire the Half-Elf vs the Elf.
Stat bonuses? Effectively a wash. Elves get a highly used stat, but loose one too.
Skill Mods? Close to identical, though Listen, Spot, and Search are useful for everyone, while Diplomacy and Gather information may be less useful for a barbarian, Wizard, or many other concepts.
Lowlight? Check. Same.
Bonus weapon proficiencies? Wait, the half elf doesn't get anything else at all? We didn't even get to the free search check.
Favored Class? well, it's a common overlooked system, but it gives a slight edge to the Half-Elf if you're going to have a disparity between 2 classes, one of which isn't the Wizard. It's not worth that much though, certiaintly not enough to overlook the 4 free martial proficiencies and the search check.
The human on the other hand gives you bonus feats and skills. For PrCs, it allows for more customizations vs and equaly statted Half-Elf, because you have a feat to blow on a prereq (So that skill focus: Perform doesn't hurt as much), and the extra skill points allow for either another maxed out skill, or a few more points to spread around. Given that ranks are often more important than the total bonus (For synergy, and definatly for PrCs), the extra ranks can mean a lot more as well.
So, yes, Half-Elves are mechanicaly inferior as well as somewhat redundant. If you need the extra skills and feat, you go human. If you don't you go Elf.
So, what do Half-Elves need? Something a bit more distinctive, or more customizable. Maybe instead of the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Info, they get 4 bonus skill points at 1st level, or maybe a single skill that they can count as a class skill always, or something like that. That would also play to their human heritage a bit more.
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