Half Ogre discussion (split from other thread)

[Northman]

It's nice to see this up for discussion since I'm the author of the troublesome half-ogre. But... we've been at this discussion at least three times in the past year or two. Things go round and round until all the details are spilled out and then we end up...

here.

Let me cut to the chase. Here's the problem. According to all official D&D stuff creatures like the half-ogre should have a level adjustment of +3 to +4. An ogre has a level adjustment of +6.

As some pointed out, that's unplayable. I totally agree.

When I created the half-ogre he was +1 Level Adjustment. But when the new rules came out, Savage Species, etc. It became clear he was out of whack. So I painfully upped him to +2 with a little tweaking. I used a dragon magazine article to help me since I can't seem to force myself to open the savage species text book that I bought...

I think the +2 LA is the closest we're going to get to a balanced half-ogre that is acceptable and fills the role that the half-ogre has in Aerde. And don't underestimate the power of a +6 strength. You give your character an 18 strength and now you've got a starting (adjusted 3rd level character) with a 24 strength with a +7 bonus. If that's a fighter he has a +8 to hit, and if he uses a two handed sword, he does 2d6+10 damage. And that's without a masterwork weapon, weapon focus, etc. The same 3rd level human fighter has a +7 to hit and 2d6+6 damage. And that's just the strength.

I'm not happy about the hit point deal, trust me. But that's what comes with the territory. I tried to give him 2d8 extra hit points but then that gives him two levels of giant... bla bla. He's now a +4 LA. As some so accurately pointed out.

If you have any ideas to improve the half-ogre while keeping him balanced I'd be happy to hear them. Thanks.

 

[T'ahl]

game balance

I'd have to look more into the specs on an ogre - but I do think that any character that starts out "way ahead" of the others - as far as abilities, Hit Dice, etc - should somehow end up a little "behind" for a couple rounds- or at least take a long time to level up. In 2nd edition - and still some here - a 1st level player is pretty useless - you run around trying to stay out of trouble so he might actually live to see 2nd or third level and then you can start making him cool. But with some speciality classes and some specialty races - you get a whopping good start - as compared to say the average half-elf. As such you've tripled or higher his ability to survive the first few levels - he'll jump to the front and be the hero at 1st and second - and possibly get an extra share of loot or xp - just cause he probably earned it - so why shouldn't he be held back - at least temporarily?

The only way to give the half ogre all the strength he should have and still remain "fair and even" in game - would be if the DM forced major mental hold backs on you to compensate (like your wizard puts a disguise spell on - after the party carefully explained it to you for half an hour - but you still fly into an uncontrolable rage and try to kill him anyway - cause you just can't grasp the concept that he's not a goblin. - but 1. that's not always fun to lose control of your character all the time - and 2. it's a lot of work for the DM. Trying to make the game fair with all these races is tough - Elves aren't half as "sure footed" as they would be in my imagination, or as dextrous - but it just wouldn't be fair for a half elf to start out at 25 DEX and still advance normally lol


If the Ogre is that weak later though - I can understand the problem - what about a hit dice increase every so many levels - but no other skills - no other feats - until reaching the ECL?? Or force all half ogres to start at lower ages (puberty) level advance normally but much weaker - and not gain some of those abilities until he gets through puberty and realizes his ogre strength - of course that places limits on "character customization" at the beginning - but if he makes it to 6th - he's gonna kick some butt then??

Just a couple of crazy thoughts
It's your world LOL - make it a good one

 

[Aguirre]

Well, I don't have the savage species books, and I haven't really familiarized myself with new rules pertaining to level adjustment in the 3.5 edition. That said, why not just take the half-orc and double it? Then add some clumsy and toughness:

+4 Str
-2 Dex
+2 Con
-4 Int
-4 Cha

Keep the darkvision, drop the natural armor class. It's not strong to the extreme that it was before, but it's not *that* much bigger than a half-orc (still size medium). It's not as charismatic, but it can take a toll on your self-esteem, growing up a half-giant in either human or giant society.

I think this is similar, and actually less powerful, than the minotaur from the published Dragonlance campaign setting.

Why isn't that +0 level adjustment?

 

[crystorix]

Well, the half-ogre has +3 Str unaccounted by penalties (Dex & Con negate each other; +6 Str vs -6 Int & Cha, Str counts for double against Int & Cha), a small natural armor bonus, and darkvision.

The sauran has +2 Str unaccounted by penalties, double the natural armor bonus, +2 to 3 skills, and natural weapons.

They seem about equal. Maybe I'd even put the sauran slightly ahead.

 

[DMEntropy]

I speak from experience when I tell you that a Half-Ogre fighter with 24 STR in the party makes DM'ing a real headache. The real problem comes from the fact that creatures that have a chance to stand up to this brute will likely "one-shot" the relatively frail 1 hit die half-ogre in return. That is the problem that I see with the race. It is built around making a "Tank" fighter that crumples after the first big hit. All offense, no defense.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, first of all, I'd like to know if the half-ogre in T13K's revised setting guide has any racial hit dice, and if so, how many?

Also, are half-ogres of the Giant creature type of the Humanoid creature type? The Giant Blood racial trait isn't clear, because it says they count as giants rather than simply saying that they are Giant in type or simply saying that they count as ogres for purposes of magic item usage and such.... If they are actually of the Giant creature type, then they don't count as Humanoids and are unaffected by Charm Person, Hold Person, and similar spells, which would be slightly beneficial for them.

If they have racial hit dice though, regardless of which creature type they belong to, then the number of hit dice determines how much of their other racial traits are balanced with that part of their ECL before Level Adjustment. Humanoid racial hit dice, and Giant racial hit dice, are equivalent to levels in the Warrior or Expert NPC classes pretty much, much less potent than actual PC class levels. If T13K half-ogres have some racial hit dice, then that easily balances out their natural armor, darkvision, and extra bit of Strength bonus, as long as they have something like 2 to 4 racial hit dice.

If T13K half-ogres have no racial hit dice, then they deserve nothing worse than a +1 Level Adjustment. The natural armor, darkvision, giant blood, and specific favored class are fine for a +0 LA, so only the slight imbalance in ability scores matters in that case. 2 points of Dex are traded off for 2 points of Str, 2 points of Int are traded off for 2 points of Con, another 2 points of Int are traded off for 1 point of Str, and 2 points of Cha are traded off for 1 more point of Str, leaving them with effectively +2 Strength in excess. That's a fairly weak +1 LA, but deserves it if they have no racial hit dice to balance it out. If you do give them +1 LA then, also change their Con bonus to +4 so it balances out better and isn't such a pathetic tradeoff. +1 LA for just +2 extra Strength is hardly worth it from a play standpoint, and half-ogres would then be a bit too frail compared to other level 2 PCs early on, and that weakness would carry on until the half-ogre was around 5th or 6th-level when the amount of reduced HP is less significant. If half-ogres aren't of Large size, then at least their Strength bonus won't be too significant (as they won't be able to use extra-big weapons to dish out even more excessive damage).

 

[Northman]

This is a discussion the Council Members have had on two others occassions. It's a rather complecated one. But since enough people seem to want to talk about it, let me say this.

+2 Str is not balanced out by -2 to another stat. That is the reason a half-orc gets +2 to strength and -2 to int and cha. Yet still they are a popular race.

And in gameplay DMs have repeatedly said that the half-ogre with +6 to strength is overpowered at ECL +1. It's not all about numbers, it's about playability.

Finally if standard D&D rules are used, the half-ogre is not a ECL +1 creature. That's why tweaking had to be done. The half-ogre is not 100% set in my mind, which is why I'm listening to this thread. But just realize that this discussion is not a new one and is more complicated than it seems.

 

[DMEntropy]

As Northman says, the CM's have been through this twice now. In depth. We just have not found something balanced and playable.

I enjoy reading what the people who play in our setting have to say about this and any other topic. Please keep up with the ideas.

 

[Ezieer]

Perhaps the error here is tying to be "fair". Well life aint fair is it?

Any half-ogre that wouldn't scare the bejesus out of a normal person may not have even half of the physical attributes of his ogre parent (who the hell is having sex with Ogres anyway? or getting raped and surviving? side note: always disliked half unions since they seemed necessitate rape 99.9% of the time and this is not the direction I want my fantasy roleplaying to go). Playing a half-ogre shouldn't be close to being fair and balanced... if you wan't to play a half-ogre that badly... then live with any of the downside. And yes.. there definately should be a downside!

 

[DMEntropy]

Good points Ezieer. Trying to be "Fair" usually ruins most things.

I also try to look at these odd half-races as the results from magical experimentation mostly. It helps avoid the very dark aspects you mentioned.