Half-orc dad, half-elf mom --> 'human' child?

[edbonny]

You can have a lot of fun options with this... I'd say playing a human is just out of the question. The bloodline is just not pure. One does not get a purebreed ancestor race from breeding two mutts. That leaves you figuring out what you want the new class to be/have. Besides designing a new race for this character, you can open up new options to the player once you have picked a race to start with.

Start off with choosing to be either a half-elf or a half-orc and challenging the player to define the character intertwining three ancestral races. Here are a few ideas:
> Allow the character to take feats, prestige classes, etc. normally exclusive to those of human, orcish or elvish blood. Races of Faerun has a good number of both.
> Consider allowing the character access to one or two levels of the various human / elf / orc racial paragon classes introduced in Unearthed Arcana as a means of exploring his racial heritage.
> Create an elf-touched feat if the character is a half-orc or an orc-touched feat if the character is a half-elf, that allows some "voice" to the character's less obvious heritage. Is a human-touched feat out of the question?

- Ed

 

[Driddle]

A Tangent

Amusing, isn't it, that in a fantasy world driven by magic, the game designers continue to adhere to certain unwritten rules regarding humanoid breeding?

Why is this still reenforced in our increasingly small (real) world? Why not just break down the character-design system into the two elements that would serve players best?: 1. PC descriptors such as pointy ears or background heritage, and 2. game mechanics such as +2 ability or darkvision.

Because the premise that certain "races" of people -- who can interbreed and produce viable offspring -- are limited by consistent physical characteristics is a cliche that serves no good purpose in our world. We've outgrown that (or most of us have).

So I ask again, Why do we keep it in a game? Why is it so appealing?

 

[Goblyns Hoard]

Taking the tangent and running with it

I think that the original game design was really trying to capture the concept different 'species' but referred to them as races rather than species. I'd say it probably stems from Tolkien who refers to the race of elves, the race of man, etc. They also ran with the elves and men can breed based on Elrond Half-Elven and his children. And as so many of us are just so used to these ideas that they've become sacred cows.

Anyone up for a sacrifice?

Options:

1) Some 'species' are in fact races and can interbreed producing viable offspring (elves and humans), others are related species and can interbreed and produce non-viable offspring (humans and dwarves), while still others can not produce any offspring at all (humans and centaurs).

2) Magic allows certain 'species' to interbreed and produce viable offspring (elves and humans, orcs and humans), but not others (elves and orcs). All races are species but non are close enough related to produce non-viable offspring.

3) Everything is just a really wierd race of dragons and can in fact breed with anything else... it just doesn't happen very often

Thoughts? Ideas? Flames for hijacking an otherwise interesting thread?

 

[Desdichado]

I think that the original game design was really trying to capture the concept different 'species' but referred to them as races rather than species. I'd say it probably stems from Tolkien who refers to the race of elves, the race of man, etc. They also ran with the elves and men can breed based on Elrond Half-Elven and his children. And as so many of us are just so used to these ideas that they've become sacred cows.

Personally, I don't think 'species' or anything like that was on the minds of the first developers (although I guess we could ask; Col_Pladoh still hangs around occasionally.) I think they were just pure Tolkienisms and nothing else. And even Tolkien didn't really address the concept of his races in biological terms, except in an obscure note in his previously unpublished notes, drafts and setting files, in which he states that elves and men are biologicall the same, yet spiritually different.

But hey, Tolkien's got half-elves and half-orcs, so so does D&D. I think it's really that simple and no thought was given to any type of realistic biological ramifications of that.

Anyone up for a sacrifice?

Sure, I've already done it.

1) Some 'species' are in fact races and can interbreed producing viable offspring (elves and humans), others are related species and can interbreed and produce non-viable offspring (humans and dwarves), while still others can not produce any offspring at all (humans and centaurs).

It's still not quite that simple. A lot of taxonomists are thrown for a loop by all kinds of weird things that happen in the real world. Still trying to decide the classification of the various groupings of the genus Canis for example, with Canis lupus lupus and Canis lupus familiaris and Canis lupus dingo on one end, and Canis lupus, Canis familiaris and Canis dingo on the other. If we can't figure that out in real life with an animal with which we're very familiar, why do we demand more precision from our fantasy races?

2) Magic allows certain 'species' to interbreed and produce viable offspring (elves and humans, orcs and humans), but not others (elves and orcs). All races are species but non are close enough related to produce non-viable offspring.

I think the typos in that last sentence obscured the meaning somewhat, but if you're saying that all races are species, yet are closely enough related to produce viable (yet non-fertile?) offspring; mules, so to speak, then that's a good idea for why we have half-elves and half-orcs in the game. This is probably the best fit to what we actually see represented in the core rules.

3) Everything is just a really wierd race of dragons and can in fact breed with anything else... it just doesn't happen very often

I wonder. The fact that we have half-elves and half-orcs that are crossed with humans, but no other combinations, does indeed suggest a cultural divide more than a biological one. Maybe they all can interbreed? The whole half-x template issue, on the other hand, just doesn't work from a biological standpoint; I'd recommend either tossing it entirely, or tossing biology instead. The two are irreconcilable, IMO.

Thoughts? Ideas? Flames for hijacking an otherwise interesting thread?

Well, since the thread-starter started his own hijack, I'd say that's OK...

 

[Driddle]

... The whole half-x template issue, on the other hand, just doesn't work from a biological standpoint; I'd recommend either tossing it entirely, or tossing biology instead.

Thus my suggestion that we divorce game mechanics (the pluses and minuses and special abilities) from the descriptors (cosmetics and ethnic background).

For example, make the +2/-2 ability modifier a choice separate from whether the PC is called a "half-elf" or "dwarf".

Once you do that, a player could have a PC he refers to as "mostly human, with some orc blood from my father's side of the family and elf blood from my mom," without going through contortions to get there.

 

[Desdichado]

Ah, I wasn't following that train of thought. Yeah, I could do that. Especially with the various "half" races.

That does seem a bit drastic, though. I wonder how many people would go for "using elf stats, but calling myself a hobgoblin" or something like that. It's not a problem if the character is supposed to be some kind of demihuman mutt, but otherwise I can imagine a lot of resistance to the idea.

 

[Kemrain]

As far as dragons breeding with other stuff, I was always under the impression that they did so while polymorphed into the species that they were mating with. of course, this begs the questions of other races that are polymorphed doing the same. Can I have a half-pixie?

I was always under the impression that body parts removed from a polymprphed creature returned to their origional state. Bodily fluids probably aren't an exception. This might cause difficulties if the polymorphed creature is male. If it's the female that's polymprphed, she would probbly need to remain polymorphed for the entire pregnancy, or at least a few days after copulation to assure fertalization. It's a very interesting idea.

If we want to break the molecular biology down - it could run that dragon genes are woven with some inherent magic which allows them to reconfigure to match any other species. Celestial and Fiendish genes - as extraplanr beings - don't have genes but have the ability to magically impose a genetic 'shape' on their in-built desire to procreate. Therefore all of these can breed with any creature and produce viable offspring (half-dragon, half-fiend and half-celestial).

I agree with the idea that Outsiders don't breed in the same way that creatures native to the prime do. It opens a whole new can of worms that, while very interesting, is rather off topic. Suffice it to say, I would speculate that an outsider would need to want a child in order to be 'fertile', otherwise we'd probably see such things as Half-Fiendish Bacteria... To that end, I'm suprised we don't.

- Kemrain the [Evil].

 

[Driddle]

That does seem a bit drastic, though. ... I can imagine a lot of resistance to the idea.

Roleplayers pride themselves on fluid imaginations, and yet we default to game mechanics to define entire races.

There's a lesson in human nature there somewhere... :\

 

[Kast]

IMC Orcs, Elves and Humans are combatible genetically/magically - same difference if contemperaries don't understand the process. Orcs and Elves represent two extremes and humans are in the middle.

I have created the templates Orc-blooded and Elf-blooded to describe off-spring of mixed parentage - where the player wants his PC to show those traits.

I would allow the child of a half-orc and a half-elf to be described as human. That is certainly possible as far as the game-mechanics are concerned, although the actual creature would still have elf and orc traits locked away in it's being somewhere.

 

[Joker]

I remember a similar thread posted a few months ago and I stand by my earlier reply:

Have a halfing come out and scare the out of everyone.